Safety and Self Defence

[NYCBound]

I decided to post this new topic as Dee and myself are talking about it in my post about the size of purse one needs. I agree that cities are not safe and it seems to be getting worse. I do carry pepper spray and avoid some areas of the city after dark. I guess how this relates to me really is that I do not have a drivers license and use the bus alot. There are times I do not feel safe, and thats when I get the spray out or at least have it ready.
I am not a large person. I am tall but I am only 130 lbs , and 17.1 BMI.
There are self defence classes that can be taken and after the discussion with Dee I think I will look into it more.

[VincentM]

I work the late hours... 6-10pm... I also don't drive because I can't afford the $200 a/month for parking in Seattle.....

I walk from the school campus, over two blocks, then up one block under an Underpass..... right up that street is a night club, so I don't mind walking, cause there is ALWAYS someone there, The bouncer for example, and people out having a smoke break...

But still.... I sometimes feel the need to have something OTHER than a whistle........ So.. when I get back... I am buying a Tazor....

Tazor info::

Compact
Electrocutes through clothing
Is guaranteed to drop who ever is after me

The only downside is that I have to be close to this person.... Which is fine to me because chances are, I'm not gonna be mugged from afar.

[Dee]

Vincent there are some downsides to the tazer that you should know

Here is a typical tazer

http://www.rvprotectionproducts.com/ind ... parent=159

it is heavy, a couple of pounds depending on version, and large and hard to conceal and you only get one shot.. reloading is slow, it only comes with two cartridges and replacement cartridges cost $60.. if you miss you are unarmed, although any hit anywhere on the assailant can be presumed to be effective.

It has a range of 15 feet.. 15 feet means about 1 second to respond .. it is not possible to react, draw from concealment, aim and fire in 1 second.. average time to get off a first shot by trained officers is about 1.5 seconds.. to have a chance you would have to already have it in your hand and already pointed in the general direction of the target before an assault was initated from 15 feet... that takes practice, alot of practice .

something to concider

[Sam]

And I never would've thought I'd say this but...

Tazers can kill. Even if you hit the dude's leg. Depends on the dude tho. It either kills or not.

Guns... well... it's a bit hard to kill a dude by shooting him in the leg now is it? You'd just need a bit of practice.

So, yes, if there really must be something... I'd advocate a gun. Used well, there's less chance to kill someone.

Love,
Sam

[Dee]

Where do I start.... OMG

Yes tazers can kill.. the odds are in the 1 to 10,000 range or higher... pistols in any caliber are concidered lethal weapons because you have about 25% chance of killing with a 22... .. are there variables hell yes there are variable caliber , location of wound , health of the person shot, avilability and quality of medical aid yada yada yada...
The point being that if you use a tazer it is not a reasonable expectation that the person will die... if you use a firearm you have to assume the person will die... will the person die... maybe not, but maybe.

If you use a tazer and hit with your single shot you have a 99.9% chance of stoping the attacker in his tracks.. for 2-5 minutes and you can get away... with a firearm you fire until the threat is stopped or until the guy is on you and sticking a knife in you and you bleed to death... unless you are better than 99% of the top 10% of competion and combat pistol shooters your only option is center of mass aim point and God only knows where the bullets hit when there is somebody coming at you with a knife... I train people in self defense... trust me I can scare you so bad with just a paper target you will miss 6 shots at 3 feet the first time I do it to you. It is a standard training technique it is designed to make a point.. it takes no special equipment or targets.. it is that simple and that inate in the human reflex reaction.

Whatever weapon you chose get training any firearm is a lethal weapon.. if you do not wish to or think you can kill, that is fine, in fact it is good, most people can't, you shouldn't even want to.. choose a less lethal alternative with a good close range in body contact option like pepper spray , stun gun, or even a tazer, just know the limitations.
If the lethal aspect of a firearm does not revolt you, then it is the better option, but it is lethal.

[Twyla]

I agree with you, Dee, it is a lethal option. I was taught to never aim at anything I didn't intend to shoot, and never shoot anything I didn't intend to kill. You may not kill, but that should be your intent if you use a firearm. Of course, that was a hunting safety course, not self defense, but I think it still applies.

[Tsuba]

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet, so I will.

First of all, the crime rate is falling, not rising. The reason you think cities are 'getting worse' is because of fear-mongering by the media. Sources:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm and http://stubbornfacts.us/domestic_policy ... adlines_up

It is worth noting, however, that the trans community is a niche in that statistic and that the violent crime rate in the trans community is considerably higher than the national average. Still, I think many of said trans victims are sex workers, which also skews data.

Second--if you are genuinely concerned about self defense, I would highly recommend taking up karate or aikido. Your body is the most lethal weapon you have, and you always have it with you. You would not pull a weapon unless someone first assaulted you, so range is irrelevant. With martial arts, it is possible to disarm and defeat your opponent without causing permanent damage to anyone, or risking a fatal accident.

Finally, I have to say: one thing I've learned in my years of self-defense study is: don't use your weapon--be it gun, knife, sword, or fist, unless you absolutely have to. If a guy pulls a gun on you in the street and demands your wallet and watch, calmly give it to him. If you have an opportunity to flee, take it.

There is no honor in victory, or in defeat--honor lies in peace.

~

[lisagurl]

I lived in many cities and in 6 decades I never was a victim of a crime or witnessed a crime. The again I do not spend time in areas where one would expect crimes.

[VincentM]

Um.... I'm talking about the hand held you jab someone in the sid.... not shoot them...

A real tazer is the one with two metal nubs on the end... It's light wait, and runs off a batter, as far as I know, or plugs in to recharge the cells....

[GreenFlame]

Maybe its just me, but you seem like a pretty big guy. Can't you just kick their asses? Or carry a shank or something?

Not that it helps anyone else on the thread. Its what I do though. One good thing about being 6'0 and 180 pounds as a woman, I can take down damn near anyone who comes my way. Though thats about the only good thing about being huge.

This applies for everyone else. If you insist on relying on something that you won't always have, a tazer seems like the best idea. Elsewise, I highly, HIGHLY reccomend judo. It gives the shorter folk a big advantage by having a lower centre of gravity. You always have it on hand, and it isn't tiring. The defense method is based on throwing your opponent. Even a few classes should get you well defended enough to make a hasty retreat.

[Alli]

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet, so I will.

Sorry, Hiroken, but municipalities are not required to report all crimes nor is there a standard reporting system.

No one takes the FBI statistics seriously as they are inherently flawed.

Cities, states, jurisdictions, etc can report pretty much what they please.

Chicago is on its way to its bloodiest year ever (guns banned since 1983) as well Washington D.C., Baltimore, and Indianapolis.

[NYCBound]

[/quote]One good thing about being 6'0 and 180 pounds as a woman, I can take down damn near anyone who comes my way. Though thats about the only good thing about being huge.

The defense method is based on throwing your opponent.

I am 6'1" and 130 lbs I am not big. I dont think I could throw anyone. A gun is out of the queston the only people who have guns here are the police and criminals, the rest of us are not allowed to have them. I dont know if I could hold one , never mind shooting one. One of those electrical thingys maybe. I asked and the police here do have a class for women on self defence. It is free and you can take it at night at the police stations gym. I am going to wait til I get back and take one this fall after I am all healed. From there I well have to see if I need some more training or one of those electrical thingys.

[Tsuba]

Alli:

If you say so.

Courtney: With Judo or Aikido, you don't need to be large or strong to do it. It's based on center of gravity and momentum, not strength. Look at the average Japanese person's height and weight over the past 200 years, and you will see what I mean.


~

[NYCBound]

Well, I have been thinking of taking the police Womens defence course when I get back. Today it was totally driven home to me why I really need one. I was doing a little shopping during my coffee break for things I will need when I go to Toronto when a friend of mine grabbed me from behind. Scared the life out of me, all I could do is scream. Not being able to hear I did not even know he had come up behind me. So I am going to sign up for the next class they offer. If it had been a mugging I would have been done for I froze and just screamed.

[nexyjo]

your weight, height, and self defense training isn't going to help you much when the criminal has a gun, or there's a few of them. i'll stick with my two friends - smith & wesson.

and lisa, it's easy to ignore crime when you are white and privileged, living in a rich, white neighborhood, well protected by your money. many of us are not so lucky. i've witnessed plenty of crimes, and been a victim too many times to ignore it.

if i learned one thing from the boy scouts, it's "be prepared".

[lisagurl]

I do not know the picture you paint of me but I grew up in Brooklyn went to school in Bedford Stuyvesant area, Lived on the south side of Chicago and Fairbanks Alaska on food stamps. Manitou Springs in CO, Nashville, Gillette WY, Midland Texas, others and now Mississippi. I never go to bars or stay out past 9PM. I wake at 6AM and walk. I do not shop in Walmart but like the farmers market. Nor do I eat at restaurants. I walk instead of using the car when ever I can. I do have a Glock but only used it at the range. It is keep unloaded in a safe.

In my morning walk I find beer cans made into crack pipes on the side of the road, I put them in the trash. We do not have public transit so most people that go to a bar are driving with alcohol in their system a crime waiting to happen.

P.S. I do drink wine with my meals and do not subscribe to a religion or their moral dogma.

[lisagurl]

Also My best friend passed last month in Nashville and lived next to the apartments I lived in Nashville ( he is black). Another very good friend lives in Memphis that my children have stayed with is also.

The problem with crime is people go looking for it and prepare for it. I was in the Boy Scouts also nowhere does it mention a pistol as being prepared. It suggests doing your best and having knowledge of situations to avoid, not, knowingly advance into problems.

[Dee]

Alli:

If you say so.

Courtney: With Judo or Aikido, you don't need to be large or strong to do it. It's based on center of gravity and momentum, not strength. Look at the average Japanese person's height and weight over the past 200 years, and you will see what I mean.


~

I would point out that with Judo or Akido or Karate or Taekwondo you are realisticially looking at 3-5 times a week for 1-2 hours of training for over a year to gain even a rudimentary mastery useful in actual hand to hand combat.. you are also looking at $1000-$3000 dollars for the first year at most dojo's.

Compared to about 3 months and a outlay of $1000-$1200 for pistol, ammo and dues in the IDPA meeting once or twice a month for about 2 hours to gain a functional level of self defense expertise with a pistol + whatever licensing fee's are involved for a carry permit ( $10 per year here in Alabama... $20 if you want a laminated photo ID licence).

A black belt in any martial arts is going to take about 3 years and an even greater commitment of time and money than the frequency and expense mentioned above while Expert in Pistol should be attainable in about 2 years at the per year expense and commitment mentioned above, assuming normal hand eye co-ordination.

[Tsuba]

Dee:

While martial arts dojo often cost money to attend (but not always), it is neither as expensive nor as time-consuming as you would have us believe. The skills to escape a hostile situation are learned in the first weeks of training.

In addition, martial arts develops the mind and spirit and makes a person better prepared for day-to-day nonphysical conflict, builds true confidence (not the false, brazen confidence a firearms lends a holder), and contributes to an active lifestyle.

To me, the pros outweigh the pseudocons you presented.

~

[AlannaRoe]

some weeks ago, i took a short self-defense course held by a local rape prevention/victim assistance organization. we learned various kicks and hits, how to get out of many holds, and importantly, how to be aware in order to help avoid getting into a situation in a first place. one important thing, is to disable the attacker and get away fast.

it's surprising really, how a few simple moves can incapacitate an attacker, and you don't need to be very strong or even fast. they were even able to adapt the course for me to account for my mobility issues, and how to use my cane as a weapon (a metal cane can be a really really nasty weapon). in some ways they told me that it's an advantage, as when i'm spinning around, i have three points of contact with the ground instead of two, increasing my stability.

point is, even a little bit of simple self-defense training can go a long way.

[Tsuba]

That's exactly what I'm talking about

The goal of self-defense is to get away safely, not attack your attackers. A few simple techniques can be learned in a short matter of time that enables the victim to escape to safety--no bullets involved.

[REM1126]

Yes, you can beat someone with a cane, but Mike Tyson would laugh as I hit him. On the other hand, even Iron Mike would not laugh in the face of a .45ACP.

Sometimes attackers just want to take your money. Give it to them. Other attackers may want to take your life. I would not be so accommodating with them.

martial art ... builds true confidence (not the false, brazen confidence a firearms lends a holder).... ~

I do not think that firearms necessarily "lend" a "false, brazen sense of confidence" in the holder. A firearm is a tool. It's proper use requires skill. I agree that many people wrongly assume that firearm use at close range does not require training because they think that hitting a target only a few feet away is "so easy even a caveman could do it". No offense.

The reality is that the proper use of a firearm in an up close situation requires special training. Law enforcement officers receive that sort of special training, though I am not sure that they always teach it to civilian students. Dee, I am sure you know what I am talking about. A man with a knife at a distance of 15 feet can close the distance and kill an armed person before they can draw and fire their weapon. On top of that, it is exceptionally difficult to draw and fire the weapon with any accuracy at a person that is rapidly coming at you. Proper training in that situation involves maintaining distance while drawing and firing the weapon. It takes practice. It also requires situational awareness and judgment. Possession of a firearm and knowledge of a target style shooting range type firearm safety are wholly inadequate for personal defense proficiency. They are only the first step.

Proper use of a firearm for self defense IS a marshall art. That being said, it can be mastered by people with a variety of disabilities, does not require great strength, and once employed properly has one hell of a "back off me" impact on an attacker.

[Dee]

That's exactly what I'm talking about

The goal of self-defense is to get away safely, not attack your attackers. A few simple techniques can be learned in a short matter of time that enables the victim to escape to safety--no bullets involved.

One on one and the attacker has no knives or other weapons .. maybe.. if you can even withstand the mental shock of the confrontation.. multiple attackers or an attacker with a weapon... I wouldn't bet my life on it.

The goal of an attacker when attacking a male is often intimidation and robbery.. the goal of an attacker when attacking a female can be different.. any resistance increases you chance of escape.. the quickie self defense courses can increase you chances, especially in a one on one no weapons situation.. even screaming betters your odds. But they are no substitute for a serious set of defensive skills... just obtaining a level of presence of mind when attacked takes a carefully graduated presentation of the threat in a controled enviroment.
Few martial arts are "useful" in an actual fight for your liife below a "Red Belt" Obtaining the Red or Brown belt is seldom permited before the completion of the first year of training for the simple reason it has be learned thru painful experience that what works in a dojo under controlled conditions sparing with a known partner and with a flawless understanding and ability to perfom the red belt/brown belt and lower forms and moves just gets people hurt when they are attempted in real life.. don't take my word for it... go to the dojo of your choice, ask the teacher/Sensi his opinion of when that particular martial art becomes an actual effective method of self defense , what the belt progression is and what the minimum time requirements are at each level before you are even allowed to test for the next higher belt.
Also ask what frequency of class attendance is required to be allowed to test and if competion against other dojo's or multi dojo competions are required to test for certain belts ( thus giving you experience against a "unknown opponent" ) .

I am not against any form of actual self defense training.. I am against basing your well being on untried personal philosphies from people that have little time and experience living as a wo9man. No offense to anybody, but it does take some conciderable time living as woman to fully adjust your world view and assumptions about the world and the people in it from a lifetime ( however short that might be) of living in the world and being seen as a male. I am not dissing anybody, this is not aimed solely at hiroken, but I fear that some advice given here by some members does not fully encompass the differences in threat to women as opposed to men, nor the differences in how attacks happen and for what reason, and what the outcome will be if you fail to escape... this is not about handing over your wallet and walking away.

[NYCBound]

Like I said in a previous post, I cannot have a gun that is out of the question. I just dont know what to do if something happens so I think the police class they give would be good for me. It may not be the only thing I will have to learn but at least it is a start. Basically by the description they give its a class that shows you how to create the opportunity to get away. I have lived as a women all my life but there are other here to that have lived a number of years female. I think alot of it is just being aware of whats around you. I am at a bit of a disadvantage in that I cannot hear someone who comes up behind me. Heck I could carry a brick in my purse of I wanted a weapon. I am not out to hurt,kill, I am just wanting to get away.

[AlannaRoe]

Yes, you can beat someone with a cane, but Mike Tyson would laugh as I hit him.

would he?

my instructers wanted me to understand what a weapon my cane could be, so they did a little demo.. they obtained a 12"x16" piece of metal sign stock, and had it mounted loosely in a frame at about average head height. when i snapped up my cane at it and hit it, it severely dented the sheet of metal.

mind you, "snapping" a cane isn't just swinging it. snapping is when you swing it quickly and explosively, using some sort of wrist reflex, i forget what it's called. the effect is a cane moving almost faster than you can see it, with a LOT of power.

at the very least, it would give someone a nasty concussion. at worst, welll.

[Tsuba]

REM, I have to both agree and disagree with you.

While ol' Mike might laugh off a cane, (or might not, as Ms. Roe points out), it's true that a firearm takes dedication and martial-arts like discipline to operate safely and effectively. I want no mistake made: I have a great deal of respect for anyone who knows when, where, and how to use a firearm.

However, I must point out that, especially in the disciplines I pointed out, size and strength are in many cases irrelevant. I have seen a ten-year old girl with little martial experience throw and pin a grown man. This is possible because:


-No matter a person's size, nearly everyone has identical weak points, the most vulnerable and least remembered of which is center of gravity.
-The psychological factor: The more powerful an assailant *thinks* he is, the more open he will leave himself for attack by underestimating his victims.
-And of course, the bigger they are, the harder they fall! A person of Mr. Tyson's size would likely be knocked completely unconscious with a simple throw, simply because of their momentum .

[REM1126]

I used Mike as an example because he was famous for having committed several strong arm robberies as a 12 and 13 year old kid. Even then he was about as big as we remember him being. He used no weapon. He just beat people unconscious.

I saw Mike get pounded in the head pretty good more than once. It seemed to make him mad. I don't think being knocked down would have much of a different result. Sure, he is human, and could be knocked out (ask Hollyfield) but he is very capable of taking blows and advancing the attack.

Mike Tyson is not unique in that manner either. There are a lot of very tough people who can take blows without being knocked out. Many of them recognize this capacity and use it in criminal careers.

Do you really think the guy is going to let you hit him in the head with a cane without trying to duck and block the blow? He might be that shocked, but I would not bet my life that he would stand there like a sign on a pole.

[Cathy344]

"Armed gays don't get bashed."

The goal isn't to kill your attacker. The goal is to get away from your attacker. It just so happens that fleeing an attacker is easiest when they're brain dead. Short of immediate death, the best way to demotivate an attacker is by firing as many rounds as necessary into their center of mass until they stop pursuing you. For a smart attacker, the number of required rounds is zero, and that's fine. For others, it might require reloading, and that's fine as well. Regardless or the precise number needed, I'll not lose a single hour's sleep due to the number any assailant of mine might select.

[AlannaRoe]

Do you really think the guy is going to let you hit him in the head with a cane without trying to duck and block the blow

recall previous words of mine that you have missed:

the effect is a cane moving almost faster than you can see it

which means that the attacker will simply not have the necessary time to process and react to a cane that will arrive at their head in a tiny fraction of a second.

don't believe me as to the speed? try it yourself. if you don't have access to an aluminum cane, a lightweight stick will do. hold it in your hand, then snap it upward suddenly using your wrist into a target, allowing your arm to travel with the cane/stick once it is launched. with a little practice, suddenly the cane/stick is travelling REALLY fast. just be sure to contact with the metal barrel of the cane and not the rubber tip.

even if it doesn't knock the opponent out, it will stun them for at least a few seconds, which is time enough for another move that nobody of any size is immune to: a snap kick to the knee from an angle.

a snap kick to a knee will dislocate the kneecap (extremely painful), possibly damage tendons, and possibly dislocate the joint. it's a move to be used sparingly, as permanent damage is usually done to the knee. THIS IS AGONIZINGLY PAINFUL TO AN ATTACKER, and the damage done will require medical attention.

there are other moves too, like a knuckle punch to the throat, fingers to the eyes, palm to the nose, knees/fists to the kidneys, just to name a few. many of those areas are unprotected by the attacker's size or muscular bulk. say, how about a nice cane snap to the front of their throat? pretty sure that's going to hurt a tad.

remember, all you really have to do is to disable/stun the attacker long enough to GET AWAY.

when it comes to attempted rape, it is a well-established fact that a potential rapist will most often seek out victims they think won't fight back. if the victim starts to fight back, a lot of rapists will break off to protect themselves, and the victim is suddenly not worth the effort.

bashers otoh, are more vicious and are often willing to take some damage in the process of beating down their victim. for them, it is sometimes necessary to do them more serious damage in order to prevent serious injury and/or death on your part.

either way, the most effective way to defend yourself is to use fighting techniques that don't need great strength on your part. and that take advantage of vulnerabilities that exist regardless of the attacker's size or strength.

recommended reading is to google for terms like "rape prevention", "unarmed self defense", and "armed self defense"..

[AlannaRoe]

a few very interesting links:

http://www.donrearic.com/cane1.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0MC3ueFXbQ

http://www.themartialist.com/0603/canemasters.htm

http://www.fightcon.com/viewVideo.php?v ... lf_Defense

http://youtube.com/results?search_query ... arch_type=

that last one is just a search results page on youtube, but it does a good job of showing what is possible to do self-defense-wise with a cane. and, i learned that there are even canes specially made for combat. actually didn't know that.

[nexyjo]

The goal isn't to kill your attacker. The goal is to get away from your attacker.

my goal is to stop an attacker. guns are pretty effective at that.

[AlannaRoe]

and in many locales, using a gun against an unarmed attacker is considered excessive force. how does it look, say, when you shoot some drunk who just wants to throw a few punches at a target of immediate convenience?

i don't deny guns as an option, but i don't feel that they should be a first choice for self-defense in a fight. besides that, if you get charged by the police after a fight, you are far less likely to be convicted and serve time if you've used hand-to-hand techniques rather than a gun.

frankly, it bothers me that the gun proponents in this thread seem to rather casually regard the prospect of deadly force and the possibility of taking a life. while there is a time and a place to kill, i feel it should be done only when there is no other option.

[Alli]

how does it look, say, when you shoot some drunk who just wants to throw a few punches at a target of immediate convenience?

If you were in fear for your life regardless if you knew they were armed or not lethal force is usually permissible.

Some states like Texas allow for the "Castle defense" where it does not matter if you fear for your life, if someone is breaking in your home or your neighbors home you and you witness it you can shoot them until they quit squirming.

i don't deny guns as an option, but i don't feel that they should be a first choice for self-defense in a fight.

More than likely brandishing a firearm and telling a would be attacker will be enough to demotivate them completely.

However, if they continue to come towards you and you feel threatened after giving warning, then it the fear of your life defense again.

frankly, it bothers me that the gun proponents in this thread seem to rather casually regard the prospect of deadly force and the possibility of taking a life. while there is a time and a place to kill, i feel it should be done only when there is no other option.

Frankly what bothers me is that as a community, we experience more murder at the hands of bigots than any other minority.

[Dee]

and in many locales, using a gun against an unarmed attacker is considered excessive force. how does it look, say, when you shoot some drunk who just wants to throw a few punches at a target of immediate convenience?

i don't deny guns as an option, but i don't feel that they should be a first choice for self-defense in a fight. besides that, if you get charged by the police after a fight, you are far less likely to be convicted and serve time if you've used hand-to-hand techniques rather than a gun.

frankly, it bothers me that the gun proponents in this thread seem to rather casually regard the prospect of deadly force and the possibility of taking a life. while there is a time and a place to kill, i feel it should be done only when there is no other option.

This thread is a spin-off of the "How big of a purse do you need" Thread over on "General Discusion" http://www.tgboards.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3636

Nobody who carries is casual about deadly force as I discussed on the original thread and now repost here...

Dyss I am going to have to qubble with your terminology.. The best defence is a strong and credible deterrent. A projection of a personal situational awareness by attitude and posture.
The proper ( and legal ) use of any defensive weapon, inculding firearms, is to protect innocent life and limb. Aside from a few states that have an explicit "castle doctrine" law ( which allow for lethal force to be used in certain cases for the protection of property or make an legal assumption of the intent of the intruder in your own home), the standards any action you take with any weapon will be judged by the criteria that you acted to protect your own life or the lives of innocent bystanders. The judging will take place in three steps... first the District Attoreny for the juristiction in which you used lethal force will exercise Prosecutorial Discretion, it may then go to a Grand Jury, and if your judgement is not validated and you do not get a No Bill, your actions will be judged by a jury of your peers.

You have to know the law in your juristiction, and I mean know it, not think you know what it is.. hire a lawyer to brief you in detail, not only under what conditions you may use any weapon, inculding pepper spray and stun guns as well as firearms, to avoid criminal or civil penality, but also what after actions you must take to insure the best possible legal outcome for yourself. Pepper spray and stun guns are concidered less than lethal weapons, but every year people die by their use.. could be a Heart Attack initiated by a stun gun, or an allergic reaction to pepper spray or an asthma attack, although if legally used that will not normally be held against you.

This is reality, these are the cirumstances all responsible legally armed citizens accept when they legally carry. If you fire and miss and kill or injure an unintended person you risk prosecution for neglegent homicide as a minimum as well as civil action, no matter how justified lethal force was against your intended target.

These are the details that so many uninformed people do not realize. Most States require a certifcation course explaining these details as well as a live fire competency test before issuing a license.

It is a weighty burden, but IMHO infinitly better than rape or death or watching helplessly while a loved one is butchered before your eyes.

It bothers me that the proponents of various martial arts and less ethal weapons seem to think that the effective use of such defensive measures requires little to no effort skill or training, and do not discuss the potential legal and civil liabilities that can be incured by their use.. Assault with a deadly weapon is assault with a deadly weapon.. that inculdes canes, clubs , stun guns, knives, baseball bats.. agravated assualt inculdes pepper spray , tazers , and stun guns and martial arts.. they are all felonies, misused or used in a way you cannot justify to a jury of your peers ( with all their attendant prejudices) or a grand jury you will be doing felony time.

There is no form, style, or implement of defense that you can ever use, even your bare fists, that will not be scruntized and second guessed by the legal system if anybody is injured in any way. You will have to formally explain and justify your actions.

How you choose to defend yourself does not matter legally as much as your ability to properly judge whether defending yourself is legally permissable... the fact that many methods of defense have next to no deterent power and can only be employed after body contact has occured does mean, if you survive the attack, that you have a tangable body of evidence that you were in a fight.. you still have to prove that other guy started it or that you said "NO" and didn't ask for it "rough".

Some of the fantasy of what it takes to aquire useable and effective self defense skills that have been posted has been revealing IMHO..
It is up to you to make a personal choice on how you will defend yourself, how many scenarios you choose to be effective in .. armed attacker?, Multiple attackers? single convienently small and unskilled attacker? and it is up to you at what range you choose to start that defense.. and it is up to you if you wish to present such an obviously superior defense that the attacker chooses not to attack at all once you have issued your first warning or assumed your impressive akido stance.

Only you can decide your life is worth defending and making the effort to seriously aquire the skills to effectively defend it.

[NYCBound]

I think that ally makes a very good point, people who are viewed as not being "normal" ie the transgender community are more likely than most to be attacked whether it is a hate crime or a view that we are some how weaker. I think it is important as a community to have this type of discussion. I am not against people who carry guns that is a personal choice, in areas where it is legal to do so. Martial arts may be one way to learn how to defend yourself, I am not sure if it would be one of the first choices I would make. I think the important thing that should come out of this discussion is that as individuals within this community we need to look at what our possible options are and find ways to minimize the threat of being attacked. Even if one person who never thought about it before comes away from this discussion with realization that they need to be better perpared then I think as a group we would have done what this site was set up to do: that is to help others. I have signed up for the class the police are giving it starts next month. I urge those who have not really given much thought to how they would defend themselves to seek what options are avalible in your area and make an educated choice as to what the best defence would be for you.

[Dee]

I have never found any hard data that suggests that the GLBT community is attacked with a greater ferquency than women in general... I would suggest, based on reported and imterpolated crime statistics for various groups of people and categories of crimes that the data indicates women are more likely victims of criminal vilolence by a factor of about 3 than transgenders based on a per capita basis. I suppose it all depends on what numbers you accept as to the number of transpeople there are.

The basic philosophy behind Pink Pistols http://www.pinkpistols.org/
is that an organization advocating legal carry of firearms and openly identified with the GLBT community not only provides personal protection for members who carry, but also may cause pause in bigots( who had in the past concidered members of the GLBT community easy and safe targets for their violence) because of the possibility they may now be armed and trained.

I have been a member of Pink Pistols for over 6 years now.

[nexyjo]

in arizona, one can respond with deadly force against an attacker using deadly force.

i hope i never have to use any of my guns for self defense, but if i do, in the end, i am hoping that mine will be the only story.

and i'm a member of the pink pistols as well

[Vivian]

...sorry to revive this thread, but has anyone considered Krav Maga at all?

It teaches you various scenarios and how to react to them, even with a knife.

The amount of force also depends on the level of threat that appears, and if it is getting dangerous at all.

...anything can be used as a weapon...not just guns....

[aliciadarling]

Hi:

Probably the best defence is using your common sense to
avoid potentially dangerous situations.

Individuals who have been used to and able to defend themselves
as men need to take some tips from women who've use
prevention rather than think they can handle every situation
that may come along as they have in the past.

You become more of a potential target than you might
have been before.

[Hiro]

...sorry to revive this thread, but has anyone considered Krav Maga at all?

It teaches you various scenarios and how to react to them, even with a knife.

The amount of force also depends on the level of threat that appears, and if it is getting dangerous at all.

...anything can be used as a weapon...not just guns....

Krav Maga is an effective martial art that borrows from many other disciplines. I understand the training is a 'no holds barred' type mentality, which I endorse in lieu of formalized rank/kata approaches, which lack in pragmatics. I think there are better forms of self-defense out there, but that speaks to my preference, not to the effectiveness of Krav Maga.

[theos]

I have different kinds of weapons for my safety and self defense.. How about you guys? Be prepared.

[almost2innocent]

The best weapon that you can carry around with you, is avoidance. Carrying any sort of weapon will only aggrevate those attacking you (and if there is more than one, even having a gun will only help you ward off one person at a time), and if you do have a weapon, chances are, wherever it is you're living, it might be seen as illegal.

I don't believe that defending yourself should be a crime, but the law is the law.

This topic I think was brought up somewhere else, and I believe that a lot of people said the opposite of what I believe, but I think the best method of self defence is learning some sort of martial art, or possibly learning how to get away,or at least endure an attack so that you don't wind up with serious damage.

If someone wants to attack you, believe you me, they'll find a way. The whole point of being attacked is being taken by surprise. If someone comes at you in a dark alley on a night time, you won't expect it.

I don't go around at night time alone, I avoid dangerous areas, etc.

But in all honesty, i live in London, and I've never felt unsafe. A lot of this media hype is riduclous. Things are better than they used to be. Much better.

Stay safe girls/guys,

Rachel, xxx

[nexyjo]

I don't believe that defending yourself should be a crime, but the law is the law.

wow. i've read stories about how things are across the ocean. i can't imagine that defending yourself is a crime. many states in the u.s. have what's called a "castle doctrine" - from wikipedia:

A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine that arose from English Common Law[1] that designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine.

oddly enough, it stems from english common law. here in arizona:

You are justified in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against a person if you reasonably believe you or another person are in imminent peril of death or serious physical injury, and the person you act or threaten to act against had unlawfully or forcefully entered or was unlawfully or forcefully attempting to enter a residential structure or occupied vehicle, or had removed or was attempting to remove another person from the residential structure or occupied vehicle against their will. You have no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force in such situations.

[almost2innocent]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/farmer-who-shot-burglar-to-leave-jail-next-week-643372.html

By what I said, "The law is the law" I mean that in England, you can get into a lot of trouble if you use unreasonable force

[http://www.protectingyourself.co.uk/law-on-using-reasonable-force.html]

So what I am trying to explain, is that you should really avoid fighting, especially with any sort of weapon, especially if you're in England, where using unreasonable force is frowned upon.

I wish I could remember the legal precedent (I'm a law student), but I can't remember it off the top of my head, and I can't be bothered to look through my law books!



I'd never heard of the Castle Doctrine though. lol. Thanks Nex, xxx

Hugs,

Rachel, xxx

[Amylin]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/farmer-who-shot-burglar-to-leave-jail-next-week-643372.html

By what I said, "The law is the law" I mean that in England, you can get into a lot of trouble if you use unreasonable force

[http://www.protectingyourself.co.uk/law-on-using-reasonable-force.html]

So what I am trying to explain, is that you should really avoid fighting, especially with any sort of weapon, especially if you're in England, where using unreasonable force is frowned upon.

I wish I could remember the legal precedent (I'm a law student), but I can't remember it off the top of my head, and I can't be bothered to look through my law books!



I'd never heard of the Castle Doctrine though. lol. Thanks Nex, xxx

Hugs,

Rachel, xxx

Very true. I had a friend that ended up in jail because he almost killed someone with one hit. They tried to charge him with excessive force. He ended up getting the charges dropped, but if he ended up loosing he would have spent a lot of time in prison for one hit on someone that was attacking him.

[nexyjo]

here you can use deadly force if any reasonable person would be in fear for their life. so if a man broke into my house in the middle of the night, i could shoot him first, and then ask why he was in my house.

[JenniElizabeth]

I hate to say this to who said that the crime rates a going down: That may be where you are, but not here in Memphis. It doesn't matter which part of the city you are in either. This city is turning into another LA or Miami, with a quickness. There are so many gangs her and they are in every part of the city. It's not unusual to go to sleep with gunfire or wake up hearing it. And if they don't get you we have the 'redneck' police that love to hassle the TS community, because they have nothing to lose. Seeing there is no protection for us here. In the last few years they have killed some TS they had "arrested' And if you get beaten up or jumped and the police find out your TS they have been known to let the ones doing the crime go and laugh at you, and maybe if they see it, maybe the will call you an ambulance. But most likely they will tell you to get up and leave, or you will go to jail for wasting their time.

[aliciadarling]

Why couldn't someone learn it from watching Youtube and practicing on the family chihuahua?

[aliciadarling]

Well maybe an attack from a chihuhua was a bad example, but what if he once belonged to a martial artist and knew how to go for the jugular?

I'm more worried about how to defend myself against an attack with a banana however,
but thankfully I have a training video on that.

[Tawny Frogmouth]

I always thought that side-holstered cats would make great defensive weapons.