Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

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Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Kim 0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:44 pm

I came across this while doing some research. I don't know if anyone else has heard of this but it seems very interesting? What do you think? I don't know a whole lot about it other than what I read in the article but it seems like it was a success and was not a unique, one-off surgery.

A Patient Gets the New Transgender Surgery She Helped Invent

https://www.wired.com/story/a-patient-gets-the-new-transgender-surgery-she-helped-invent/

I don't know if I'm allowed to quote whole articles or other media here but here's a short excerpt.

LIKE MANY OTHER surgery patients, Hayley Anthony has a daily physical therapy regimen. But unlike other post-ops, the 30-year-old marketing consultant is recovering from a procedure she helped invent. Five months ago, she became one of the first people in the world to have a piece of tissue incised from the cavity of her abdomen and turned into a vagina. A surgeon in New York City may have pioneered and performed Anthony’s procedure—but the idea to try it in the first place was all hers.

Anthony had known her whole life that she was female, but she didn’t begin transitioning until about four years ago. Then, in the fall of 2015, after months of working with a therapist to better understand herself and her options, she accepted that she had to do whatever it took to have the right body for her mind. She scheduled a consultation with Ting and they made a date to make her a new vagina. Then she went home and down a deep internet hole. “I had gone into the process, eyes wide open, understanding all the compromises and willing to accept them,” Anthony says. The procedure she was mentally preparing for involved slicing open the penis, removing most of the inside parts, and then folding the penile skin into the space between the urethra and the rectum (kind of like turning a sock inside out). In what has become the standard surgery for a male to female bottom transition, the outside of the penis then becomes the inside of the vagina.

But a vaginal cavity made out of skin doesn’t do some things the inside of vagina should (like get wet when aroused) and does others it really shouldn’t (like grow hair, even after electrolysis). For trans women with genital dysphoria, it’s been the only real option for bottom surgery, and it’s been a pretty good one. But the procedure can still leave many disappointed.

During her research though, Anthony came across a paper describing the work of some doctors in India who were building vaginas a bit differently. They were performing surgeries on women with a rare disorder that causes the organ to develop abnormally or not at all. So they had to start from scratch, which requires a lot of material. They found a way to do that with tissue from the peritoneum, which is basically a bag of loose tissue that encircles the inside of your abdomen and holds your guts in place. She brought the paper into her next consultation and showed Ting. “At first he was like, ‘What is this girl doing?’” Anthony says, laughing. “I have no medical training. I’m not a scientist. But then he looked at it and said, ‘Oh, there might be something here.’”

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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby dreamin » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:05 pm

sounds very interesting :!: ...i've also seen an article on how Italian scientists were growing vaginas for women who didn't have one by cultivating a skin matrix using stem cells. THAT seems like the ideal 'cause it doesn't borrow from any other tissue<3, but yeah they need to keep building on this tech

i want my sex-change pill honestly, and it needs to fix EVERYTHING mKay :?:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Tara » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:07 pm

dreamin wrote:i want my sex-change pill honestly, and it needs to fix EVERYTHING mKay :?:


Yes, that! And it needs to work overnight.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Kim 0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:29 pm

dreamin wrote: i want my sex-change pill honestly, and it needs to fix EVERYTHING mKay :?:


I know, I'm so holding out for that, too! :lol: In the meantime, I keep making sure to wash my face at night and use a good moisturizer. Being a girl is so much damn work. Ugh! Why can't there be an Easy Button for this? :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I used to work in the medical field and from what little I remember of physiology there's no reason this shouldn't 'work'. Since they're using tissue from your own body, it's unlikely your body would reject your new vagina, given that it's your own body tissue. Worth looking in to, anyway. :idea:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby MikiSJ » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:33 pm

Differentiation of tissue types within the body is very subtle. While I can understand a XX (female) individual manipulating tissue to grow a vagina, I do not understand the mechanics necessary for a XY (male) to change tissue with an opposite genotype (is this a correct term).

There was some early research I recall where a fetus was grown inside a male (non-human) by attaching the placenta to intestinal wall tissue and grown to fetal maturity. This might be an alternative to trying to grow a uterus into a male, but I don't think human research will ever pass an ethics panel.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Bea » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:15 pm

Hm. If this becomes a thing and works out well, I might lean toward actually wanting bottom surgery again, and I would like that.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby julie.chan » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:54 am

Wow, this sounds amazing! I'll definitely have to follow up on this. If this works well long-term, it would be well worth traveling out to New York for.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:22 am

MikiSJ wrote:Differentiation of tissue types within the body is very subtle. While I can understand a XX (female) individual manipulating tissue to grow a vagina, I do not understand the mechanics necessary for a XY (male) to change tissue with an opposite genotype (is this a correct term).

There was some early research I recall where a fetus was grown inside a male (non-human) by attaching the placenta to intestinal wall tissue and grown to fetal maturity. This might be an alternative to trying to grow a uterus into a male, but I don't think human research will ever pass an ethics panel.


If they deactivated the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, only X-dominant or XY-duplicate genes would be expressed, so the tissue, in the absence of male genetic expression, could be coaxed into differentiating as vagina. Suppress Wolffian ducts while permitting Müllerian ducts to develop & you could grow an entire female reproductive system genetically identical to the phenotypically male host, theoretically.

But everyone in the world has the genetic information within them to grow a vagina, because all human beings have an X chromosome containing that information. It is the SRY gene that suppresses that.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby dreamin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:45 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:If they deactivated the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, only X-dominant or XY-duplicate genes would be expressed, so the tissue, in the absence of male genetic expression, could be coaxed into differentiating as vagina.

but does the SRY suppress "baddies" from being expressed also ...how to prevent unwanted sides :?:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:01 pm

dreamin wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:If they deactivated the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, only X-dominant or XY-duplicate genes would be expressed, so the tissue, in the absence of male genetic expression, could be coaxed into differentiating as vagina.

but does the SRY suppress "baddies" from being expressed also ...how to prevent unwanted sides :?:


:?:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby dreamin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:02 pm

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote: :?:

at the question, the solution, or both? :)
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:53 pm

dreamin wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote: :?:

at the question, the solution, or both? :)


What baddies or sides of being female were you wondering if the SRY gene suppresses?
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby dreamin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:51 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:What baddies or sides of being female were you wondering if the SRY gene suppresses?

i guess i was only wondering if the SRY gene exclusively worked to allow the blueprint for female expression, or if activating it could also activate "other things" which would have otherwise remained dormant and which are undesirable
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:11 am

dreamin wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:What baddies or sides of being female were you wondering if the SRY gene suppresses?

i guess i was only wondering if the SRY gene exclusively worked to allow the blueprint for female expression, or if activating it could also activate "other things" which would have otherwise remained dormant and which are undesirable


As far as I know, the SRY gene exclusively blocks female reproductive system development; its sole job is to cause male development.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby dreamin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:33 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:
dreamin wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:What baddies or sides of being female were you wondering if the SRY gene suppresses?

i guess i was only wondering if the SRY gene exclusively worked to allow the blueprint for female expression, or if activating it could also activate "other things" which would have otherwise remained dormant and which are undesirable


As far as I know, the SRY gene exclusively blocks female reproductive system development; its sole job is to cause male development.

what a bastard of a gene... maybe we can flip it epigenetically :?: c:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Kim 0 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:49 am

julie.chan wrote:Wow, this sounds amazing! I'll definitely have to follow up on this. If this works well long-term, it would be well worth traveling out to New York for.


Bea wrote:Hm. If this becomes a thing and works out well, I might lean toward actually wanting bottom surgery again, and I would like that.


Yay! That's great to hear. Makes me happy! :D

As for some of the more complex discussion, my past 'medical experience' consists of being a medic when I was in the military and later on, working as a lab tech and cadaver tech (kinda ghoulish, I know...glad I don't do that anymore), so I'm hardly qualified to answer lol. :|

It definitely got me interested. While I'd like to do the 'full drill' one day when I transition, I've always been kind of lukewarm about bottom surgery (although an orchiectomy is definitely in the plan...love to get rid of those!) This procedure does seem to hold some promise. So far, apparently around 22 women have had it and over 100 scheduled for the future so we should learn what longer term results are like within a few years.

The Mount Sinai Center For Transgender Medicine and Surgery looks like a very interesting place. I sent them an email with some questions about the new surgery, so we'll see.

http://www.mountsinai.org/patient-care/service-areas/center-for-transgender-medicine-and-surgery
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby jennifer9 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:24 am

That is an amazing story! I too will keep that in mind, again Kim I am right in line with you, I was even in theMilitary too! I was Infantry/Paratrooper/ranger, definitely glad I am not doing that anymore! Do you mind if I just follow you around and copy everything you do? wash face at night = yes orchiectomy = yes new bottom surgery = yes. Just after Kim! :)
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Lesley Niyori » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:18 am

Responding to the OP, as I understand it, the method likely will become the new standard of 'best possible option".

No regrets here with my surgical method, but, I do wish my body would leave it alone :) and it would be nice if it self-lubricated on its own too.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Kay » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:38 am

Since adding a little T post-op, I self-lubricate PLENTY!!!!!! Would have been nice though to have peritoneal tissue instead of penile/(hairy) scrotal tissue lining my vagina, that's for sure...better absorption too for hormones if I were to insert tablets there or cream...

oh well...
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Kim 0 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:16 am

jennifer9 wrote:That is an amazing story! I too will keep that in mind, again Kim I am right in line with you, I was even in theMilitary too! I was Infantry/Paratrooper/ranger, definitely glad I am not doing that anymore! Do you mind if I just follow you around and copy everything you do? wash face at night = yes orchiectomy = yes new bottom surgery = yes. Just after Kim! :)


What?! No no no, don't do that! I'm a complete basket case and I would probably get us both in some kind of trouble. :lol: :mrgreen:

Just kidding of course...it would probably be awesome to hang out over cocktails and chat or something. :) I spent time in both the Army and later the Air Force/ANG (was always very jealous of the female AF Class A/B uniform, sigh). You were a lot tougher than me! I spent most of time assigned to aviation units as a medic so it was mostly taking pilots blood pressure and other mundane stuff lol. I did go to Airborne school and passed my 5 jumps but I was like, "Okay, that is enough of that. These people are crazy".

Anyway, fun stuff! :D Pleased to meet you, Jennifer. That's my favorite female name, actually. I like the "9", too. That's actually a "zero" after my name, not an "O" btw, as in Kim Zero. We can be the Numbers Girls. :mrgreen:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Lesley Niyori » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:19 am

It's interesting how many transgender women are ex-military.

I was with the Royal Canadian Regiment in the late 70s.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Kim 0 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:19 am

Lesley Niyori wrote:Responding to the OP, as I understand it, the method likely will become the new standard of 'best possible option".

No regrets here with my surgical method, but, I do wish my body would leave it alone :) and it would be nice if it self-lubricated on its own too.


I'm glad it worked out well for you! :) Also, who knows? Maybe one day they'll come up with some kind of "retro fit" for women who have already had more traditional SRS or gender confirmation surgery.
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Demon » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:12 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:
MikiSJ wrote:Differentiation of tissue types within the body is very subtle. While I can understand a XX (female) individual manipulating tissue to grow a vagina, I do not understand the mechanics necessary for a XY (male) to change tissue with an opposite genotype (is this a correct term).

There was some early research I recall where a fetus was grown inside a male (non-human) by attaching the placenta to intestinal wall tissue and grown to fetal maturity. This might be an alternative to trying to grow a uterus into a male, but I don't think human research will ever pass an ethics panel.


If they deactivated the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, only X-dominant or XY-duplicate genes would be expressed, so the tissue, in the absence of male genetic expression, could be coaxed into differentiating as vagina. Suppress Wolffian ducts while permitting Müllerian ducts to develop & you could grow an entire female reproductive system genetically identical to the phenotypically male host, theoretically.

But everyone in the world has the genetic information within them to grow a vagina, because all human beings have an X chromosome containing that information. It is the SRY gene that suppresses that.


if you delete the SRY gene of one cell it should alter the dna of the surrounding cells and eventually cause a chain reaction where the entire body loses the sry gene
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby marci » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:25 am

:roll:

if you delete the SRY gene of one cell it should alter the dna of the surrounding cells and eventually cause a chain reaction where the entire body loses the sry gene
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:36 am

marci wrote::roll:

if you delete the SRY gene of one cell it should alter the dna of the surrounding cells and eventually cause a chain reaction where the entire body loses the sry gene


:lol:
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Lesley Niyori » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:59 am

Kim 0 wrote:
Lesley Niyori wrote:Responding to the OP, as I understand it, the method likely will become the new standard of 'best possible option".

No regrets here with my surgical method, but, I do wish my body would leave it alone :) and it would be nice if it self-lubricated on its own too.


I'm glad it worked out well for you! :) Also, who knows? Maybe one day they'll come up with some kind of "retro fit" for women who have already had more traditional SRS or gender confirmation surgery.


Surgery is like law. You can always make a change later :)
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Re: Possible new type of bottom surgery for MtF persons?

Postby Demon » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:48 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:
marci wrote::roll:

if you delete the SRY gene of one cell it should alter the dna of the surrounding cells and eventually cause a chain reaction where the entire body loses the sry gene


:lol:


i read somewhere that if you change the dna of one cell it will change the dna of the next cel and spread like a chain reaction
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