I may have to let myself die

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I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Sat May 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Im having a really tough time of late. Emotionally, I am a complete wreck. Things are not going well at home from my viewpoint. Although initially, my wife was supportive and reassured me that she doesnt want to leave and loved me dearly, it seems things arent what they seemed.

I have been feeling somethinbg hasnt been right at home for a few months and when trying to question or gain knowledge or reassurance, I was told I was being needy and it was becoming annoying. I have been growing increasinging scared that the marriage was heading for implosion.

A Couple fo weeks ago, my wife decided to go see a therapist of her own about me and other things. Before she left, she reassured me her feelings werent going to change and no therapist would be able to change her mind in 1 hour or 3 for that matter. Later that same day, her attitude was rather different.
She was "instructed" by said therapist NOT to reassure me or my son that she would stay. Obviously this brought a whole load of emotionally driven tears to my eyes hearing this. My worst fears seemingly coming true.
She did say she supported me, but when I said supporting what Im doing(transition) and committing to the marriage as before are not the same thing and she said "thats true".
Since that day, things seem to go up and down and at some points I think we are ok and at others, the world is falling apart. She has had yet another appointment with the therapist and she was "instructed" to ask me if she wanted to be a man, how would i feel about that? I said Id support her totally if thats whats she really felt she needed to do. She then asked..."but would you stay with me?" And I said absolutely! because I love you.
The she adds, "but think as if your still a man and I wanted to become a man...would you take it in the butt?"
I didnt really hesitate and i said yes I would because no matter what she would look like, I love you and I made a vow...."for better or worse, richer or poorer....etc".

The problem here is that she was only really trying to get me to put myself in her shoes more or less, however, she seemed to be looking more for me to say I had a problem with "her wanting to be a man and me still being a man" so that she could draw coorelation to our situation as ammo for making me feel it should be ok for her to leave. Thats how I feel about what that conversation was about.

Things seem rather tense around the house now and while I had thought about the reverse sitation before due to my own therapist asking that, it appears my wife just thinks I answered the question too quickly and blew off my "I would stay no matter what you looked like" response as if it were just words and not true feelings of absolute love.

This is where I may have to let myself die.......

I cant bare to live life without her. She is my everything and Ive started thinking if I stop hrt and revert back to what she knew as her husband, I can save the marriage and keep that part of happiness. I get feeling really strong about that for awile, but then the feelings of being scared to kill my real woman self re-emerge and I keep going back and forth. I dont want to kill myself(not physically), but I cant stand the thought of losing her either. There is just so much to lose by losing her that its become a real mental problem that i cant overcome. I dont know what to do.

Id say there is an 80% chance she will leave if I continue on with transition. No idea as yet if she would entertain the idea of me stopping hrt or not...there's no guarantee she would accept that and promise forever after either.
I dont want to die, but I may have to do that in order to keep the one person Ive always loved more then my own life from leaving.

Ive never been more happy with myself since starting hrt, but ive also never been so miserable before emotionally relative to my marriage and what might/probably would happen.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby sophieN » Sat May 19, 2012 11:11 pm

i so wish there was something i could think to say that had meaning, alicia. but if you must sacrifice one thing of value to save the other, then, as painful as it is to contemplate, it sounds like you've already inferred what you will be pressed to do. it doesn't mean, though, that your inner femininity can't inform all that you think and do while having saved your marriage. your family. i should probably just shut up, now. i'm sorry you are going through this. i wish you could beat the odds and have both. maybe, a session of your own with her therapist would give you some more insight. good wishes. sophie
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby no_worries » Sun May 20, 2012 2:18 am

Alicia,

I am so saddened to hear about your situation. And I am sorry to say your situation in the "norm" and not the exception in these circumstances.

You have to remember, your wife fell in love with a "man". By changing not only are you asking her to love a "woman" romantically you are also asking her to what amounts be to changing her sexuality. This is so much to deal with and on top of all of this, you are also asking for support. Think about how hard this really is. She has been raised her whole life to marry a man, have a family and live happily ever after. You are asking her to change her whole idealism of life. This is something that most people can't or won't do. It is really asking a lot.

Yes she fell in love with you, but "you" were a man at that time and as much as we would like to say that we will love someone under all circumstances, by changing your gender you are changing the very fundamental, core persona of yourself. And remember, she can't change her sexuality on a whim. Sexuality it not a choice its what we are born with.

Also remember that she is the "woman" and she most likely wants to be the "woman" in the relationship. She wants all that comes with being a woman. By changing to a women you are taking a lot of that away from her. She wants to be treated like a woman, she wants to act like a woman and she wants to be made love to as a woman. By switching you are really pulling the rug out from underneath her.

And, as much as we don't want to think about it, a transgender person has so much social baggage to deal with. By transitioning you are also asking her to deal with this. It is very hard for someone to deal with all of this if they are not the one transitioning.

It's not all doom and gloom hun, but most of the time couples don't make it. It one of those sacrifices that most TS end up having to make. I can tell you, the urge to change will not go away.

Sit down and think this out and do what you think is most important to you. It is bad to say but you need to be selfish here because you need to be honest with yourself and her. Don't drag it out it will make it worse. She loves you and you have to remember that if she didn't she would have already left BUT the love she feels for you, is the love she feels for you as a man.

Even if she would be willing to be in a relationship with another woman she will need time to fall in love with you as a woman. This takes time and space. Be honest with her and just try to work it out. Its hard, love and I wish I could give you a big hug right now.

Give it some time BUT always be honest with her and yourself. If lies start, its all over.

~A
If you do not breathe through writing, if you do not cry out in writing, or sing in writing, then don't write, because our culture has no use for it. ~Anais Nin
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Sun May 20, 2012 8:43 am

sophieN wrote:i so wish there was something i could think to say that had meaning, alicia. but if you must sacrifice one thing of value to save the other, then, as painful as it is to contemplate, it sounds like you've already inferred what you will be pressed to do. it doesn't mean, though, that your inner femininity can't inform all that you think and do while having saved your marriage. your family. i should probably just shut up, now. i'm sorry you are going through this. i wish you could beat the odds and have both. maybe, a session of your own with her therapist would give you some more insight. good wishes. sophie


Thats the hardest thing to come to terms with...losing yourself to make someone else happy.
As far as the odds, we both(my wife and I) always thought we were part of the 5% of couples that stay together. regularly used to make a point to remind me of how accepting she was and that gave me great comfort. She has known for a year and a half now about me being transexual and all up till just recently, things seemed to be going wonderfully. She was supportive about me starting hormones and the like, supportive of me getting my nails done and keeping up with them(acrylic), etc.
So this change in stance from her has me off kilter as its opposite of what she was having me believe before.

Ive been seeing my own therapist for a year and ive asked her about whether its a good idea to bring her to a session of mine. Well, my therapist wasnt too keen on the idea. In fact she said this is a safe haven for YOU and your wife will know that and feel defensive. The same would be true for my wife's therapist. My wife feels safe divulging whatever it is she's said. I would then be the one feeling the deck was stacked against me. I do think we should go see a couples therapist, but that requires my wife to want to continue with the marriage and the uncertainty of that is the big elephant in the room right now.

I have not brought up giving up who I am to my wife to try to keep her from leaving yet.

Ive been quite well aware of everything that "no_worries" spoke about in her post even before I actually came out to my wife. Ive stressed badly about how this affects my wife and what she's feeling and going through.
While in my head, Ive kinda always expected my wife to eventually leave me, my HEART would never believe that and even now feels that there's got to be a glimmer of hope. Such is the way our hearts work I guess.
The very real possibility now that my wife may leave has my heart in soooo many knots I cant get the words out to describe it.

I dont know what to do. I am at a point of severe indecision(I am not someone who usually has issues standing firm one way or another ). I Keep going back and forth between I have to be me no matter what or i cant live without my wife. In the rare instance in the past where indecision has been a problem, i generally dont do anything until forced to do so or the decision is made for me. In this case, indecision may result in complete loss of everything just for the hope I can be me and still have her.

I dont know what to do.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby corvus.corax » Sun May 20, 2012 8:55 am

I've refrained from posting a response to this so far because I'm afraid that I can't be of "help" in any conventional sense.

In no small part because I know too well what you're saying and feeling.

I wish there was actually advice to give... some measure of foreknowledge to help you ward against the inevitable. But there really isn't, and I think you know why.

This is just going to hurt. You can't avoid it at this point, and the fact that you didn't ask for this - that it seems arbitrary and unfair and like something an intelligent person ought to be able to control - is not going to matter. It's pretty clear that your interior life has broken out and will never be put back in the bottle. It's also pretty clear that your marriage cannot sustain this change, unless your wife somehow transitions as well. And that's just not something you can make happen. It's her, or it's not.

If I could put a hand on your shoulder, sit across a table from you and let you talk, I would. But that's a different medium, and all I can do is let you know that I hear you, and I'm sorry for what you're going to go through.

Life will go on. It will probably get better, one way or the other, no matter what happens. But you're about to shoulder a burden of regret that will never really go away. Loss of some kind is about to become part of your life. It's going to hurt, and it's going to scar.

I'm so sorry. Please do what is best for you, and be ready to face the future.
Call in an air strike with a poison kiss.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby BecomingSusan » Sun May 20, 2012 9:33 am

I understand your feelings. I've been through it. When facing the same choice, I chose to transition and to lose a relationship of 25 years. My ex-spouse and I are good friends now, but it has been difficult to get to where we are now. She commented a few days ago that she likes me better now as a friend than when we were together in a marriage relationship.

It was probably the most difficult decision I've ever had to make. There were two paths for me to follow and I could not choose both. One was a continuation of the path I was already on that I was not traveling alone. The other would take me in an entirely new direction that would hopefully lead me to finding my true self, but has included a lot of loneliness, so far. In so many ways, it was the end of one life and the beginning of a new one. In the process, I've known suicidal depression so bad that I have been hospitalized twice to keep me from ending my life.

Life goes on. Things can get better. The old life does not go away entirely. It may feel like a death, but it is not. Memories persist and so do the relationships, although changed--but relationships always change as the people within them change. As I said, my ex and I are committed to remaining friends for the rest of our lives. I'm also becoming hopeful that my three children may eventually come to terms with my decision and once again accept me as their parent. I'm also hopeful that I will find a new relationship some day. In that relationship, I will be able to be the woman I am.

I don't know what path you will choose, but I wish you the very best. If you would like to talk about it some time, any time, let me know.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Sun May 20, 2012 4:43 pm

Honestly, just the fact that I feel like Im being heard is helping some. Not obviously to make the decision either way, but, a connection of sorts with other people that understand........I dont mean empathize either. You completely get the agony and torment Im dealing with.

Its a logical idea my brain can process that yes things may be better eventually and I will get through it ok. But, on the other side of things, my heart drives my emotions....and emotions are exceptionally powerful and can at times overtake logic.
Aside from probably losing the best thing in my life(my wife), the very thought of being alone and being trans and all that baggage just frightens me more then I can illustrate with words here. Giving up who I am also scares the living shit out of me.

I always thought I could control my emotions and do what needs to be done, but not this time....I fear that my indecision will be the thing I regret most, but am currently frozen and can't act.

Screams bloody hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby FFChristie » Sun May 20, 2012 4:50 pm

It sounds to me like you need to decide who's more important in your life, yourself, or your wife, 'cause it sounds to me like your wife's already made that same decision, and it isn't you.

This seed of doubt's been planted in her mind now, she's always going to question why you do anything, and which one of you is doing it, the guy, or the girl.

In the end I hope it works out for the best for you, 'cause you're a rad lady who obviously cares deeply about your wife and your relationship, but it seems that you want to keep the relationship going for her sake, not for yours.

As selfish as it sounds, transition is about us, we're able to finally feel more comfortable in our own skin. She's telling you that her comfort is more important than your's, and that doesn't sound like an equal partnership to me.

Best of luck to you in your decision, Alicia!
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby BecomingSusan » Sun May 20, 2012 8:53 pm

FFChristie wrote:... transition is about us ...

Yes. That's it exactly. That's what drove me to take the path I chose. As difficult as it was to decide and as difficult as it has been to take that path, it was ultimately the only path I could choose. I did agonize over the decision, but eventually realized that I couldn't continue to live with the agony of indecision.

I think about what "gender transition" means. My understanding of the phrase now is much different than it was when I started. It's far more than just changing physically. It includes just about every thing that defines the human condition.

If you're like I was then, you already know what you must do. Knowing it and doing it are far different things, however, and I'm sure you know that, too.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Telanas » Sun May 20, 2012 11:08 pm

Alicia,

My wife and I are in the same boat.
But she knew before we got married 11years ago. This will be our 20th year of being in a relationship.

But she has recently told me that we have crossed a bridge where we can never go back. She says that she wont be able to cope, if I stop HRT etc., because she would always know deep down what it really meant.

She says that I'm a different person now and she knows that's not going to change back.

She also said that she knew it wasn't going to last forever but didn't wasn't to end it before it started. I think deep down she prayed that I could manage longer than I have.

We are currently still together and taking it day-to-day. But she has asked for more space because she says that "transitioning is monopolizing our marriage". So I'm trying to not use her as a crutch. And find support elsewhere. This bothers me a bit because I thought marriage was about sharing and helping each other. But I realize this isn't a normal set of circumstances. We are here to support each other but that may mean the best thing for us is to not be married (that ls a scary thought for me).

I'm trying to face the fact that what may be best for her is not what's best for me... Only time will tell.

*Hugs*

--Telanas (Summer Anne)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby BecomingSusan » Mon May 21, 2012 1:14 am

Telanas wrote:... what may be best for her is not what's best for me ...

Understanding and accepting that is a big part of loving someone. Sadly, that sometimes means letting them go.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Mon May 21, 2012 6:15 am

FFChristie wrote:It sounds to me like you need to decide who's more important in your life, yourself, or your wife, 'cause it sounds to me like your wife's already made that same decision, and it isn't you.


I think she's still trying to figuere that out for herself...hence why she hasnt left by now.....and whether or not she can live with a woman as a married partner. While I cling to hope that she will find a way to emotionally overcome the "I married a man thing", it is probably wishful thinking.

FFChristie wrote:This seed of doubt's been planted in her mind now, she's always going to question why you do anything, and which one of you is doing it, the guy, or the girl.


Possibly yes. If i halt HRT, she may still have issues and then wonder.....well how long is it going to take for me to boil over and emphaticlly state hrt has to happen.....a couple years down the road? If she recommits and I stay her "husband", that thought alone may scare the hell out of her. Kinda like from her point of view....I dont want to invest more time in this relationship if your going to eventually transition anyway. By the time you hit that wall(again after trying to suppress it)...I might be 50 years old and be even harder to start over.

FFChristie wrote:In the end I hope it works out for the best for you, 'cause you're a rad lady who obviously cares deeply about your wife and your relationship, but it seems that you want to keep the relationship going for her sake, not for yours.

I appreciate the compliment. I actually want to keep the relationshipo going for MY sake....so probably even more selfish because i want to be the woman I know I am AND I want her to stay with me.

FFChristie wrote:As selfish as it sounds, transition is about us, we're able to finally feel more comfortable in our own skin. She's telling you that her comfort is more important than your's, and that doesn't sound like an equal partnership to me.


Maybe Im still trying to defend her and hope for the best, but I think thats where she's stuck at right now...trying to figure out if she can overcome that uncomfortable aspect of me being a woman and whether or not her definition of marriage can fit me in as Alicia. IS her love for me strong enough to break through that barrier, and right now, Im having very huge doubts that will happen. Doesnt mean it cant, but this is where my absolute fear is coming into play because I DONT KNOW what she's thinking either. Im in a wait and see approach because I dont have a definitive answer from her yet......the NOT knowing what she's thinking or if she's leaning one way or another and just trying to hash it out with her therapist ...it is driving me crazy.

If I wait till she makes up her mind and IF she decides she cant stay with me as Alicia, will it be too late emotionally for HER if I offer to stop HRT at that point??? This is a secondary agony Im dealing with. Not just..can I actually offer to do that at all, but, even if I could, should I do that now and try to stave off what I think is impending divorce or do i wait to see what she figures out and hope that she'll accept me as Alicia OR accept me going backwards to Randy.

I know Im repeating myself and Im sorry. I dont want to be Randy, but, I dont want my marriage to end either. I love myself too much too just easily give up being Alicia, but I love my wife too much that the thought of losing her is inconcievable.

I am no closer to making that decision. However, everything you girls have said has been soo appreciated and is helping to keep me somewhat calm. So please dont stop offering your thoughts. I really need them right now.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby ej3ae » Mon May 21, 2012 7:52 am

I got married last year and my partner knew all about my intention to begin transition/HRT etc. However, only 8 months into our marriage she decided that she could no longer live with someone who wasn't the man she fell in love with. As others have said expecting our nearest and dearest to change their sexuality is rather like them expecting us to live in our birth gender. I know that we may largely feel like the same person but we have to understand that other people will not see us that way.

In my case I wasn't given the choice between transiton and keeping my wife because she said that it would be unfair of her to expect me to be someone I am not. She only told me it was over once she had decided to leave me so the ball was rather out of my court. Of course I asked myself if I could go back to how it was but I knew that I was kidding myself. As the hurt of losing someone I still love deeply subsides in the years to come I suspect that I will come to regard her leaving me so that I can be who I am as being one of the greatest acts of support/kindness that my wife could ever have shown me. Of course that doesn't mean that I am not wishing every single day that she would change her mind.

If you choose to detransition I think you have to understand that if you could effectively surpress who you really are (not recommended) then you probably wouldn't have begun transition in the first place. I tried it myself for 20 years through childhood and early adulthood (I'm now 31) and it worked well enough, until it failed. There are no winners in that scenario IMHO.

I hope that you have friends and family (as well as your therapist) who you can lean on emotionally in person for support during this difficult time in your life.

Lots of Hugs from across the pond :-)

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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Mon May 21, 2012 10:36 am

ej3ae wrote: I wasn't given the choice between transiton and keeping my wife because she said that it would be unfair of her to expect me to be someone I am not. She only told me it was over once she had decided to leave me so the ball was rather out of my court.


If I offer to detransition, it is quite possible my wife might say the same thing. "It would be unfair for me to expect you to be someone your not exactly." I cant know that unless I do offer, but then offering also removes choice from my own hands.

Whether or not I could supress it? Your probably correct that it would be highly problematic at some point, however, along with the offer, in order to keep her by my side, taking T suppliments might prevent future issues.

ive been married to this woman for 20 years and shes everything to me. The only reason my heart beats within my chest is because of her.

Unfortunately, I do not have many friends and fewer that even know. My family is 2000 miles away...so I dont have much to lean on.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Telanas » Mon May 21, 2012 6:57 pm

I've only been on HRT for 6months now, but I know in my deep down heart that if I stopped and tried to de-transition I would inevitability, subconsciously, hold it against my wife which would end up causing a divorce anyways (and perhaps an ugly one). I would always feel like the decision to de-transition was made under duress whereas my decision to transition was pure (at the time).

I don't think I could get over that, and then not only would I likely kill a chance to be friends with my wife, I would also pass up the potential chance that things would work out (20% from your original post)...

So for me the choice is clear, but I'm not sure if my rationalizations really help you all that much. But this is the road I've decided to take in my own life. (I feel like there are a lot of parallels)

--Telanas (Summer Anne)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Mon May 21, 2012 7:34 pm

Famous movie quote.....

"Fear is the mind killer..." - Paul "Mua'Dib" Atriedes from Frank Herbert's DUNE

This is my problem, the fear is so overwhelming, that Im frozen in place unable to act either way.
By not acting, I am in fact acting to stay on the current path of HRT while hoping beyond hope(in MY mind anyway) that things can be both ways.....save the marriage AND be the girl I know to be.

But that FEAR of her possibly leaving is killing me. It is literally choking ALICIA to death.
If I DO act, then I kill myself and the fear of losing who I am is equally as strong. Would I be even remotely close to the same "man" she thought she was in love with. Odds are, killing myself(removing Alicia from consciousness) would irrevocably remove a good deal of who Randy was all along anyway. I know for a fact, if i try to remain her "husband" that IF she still left down the road for whatever reason, I would either return to the transition road or suicide would become my friend.

I do not know if I am strong enough to be without my wife. I do not know if I am strong enough to BE Alicia in the face of being alone. My wife was/is/was my pillar, my strength to move forward with transition. We talked about it before i started hrt. We talked about it after I started hrt and what it would mean to our relationship. It was HER that said it was OK for me to start hormones. SHE said she'd adapt to being "lesbian-esque" and constantly made references to other lesbian couples as if they were LIKE US!!!!
She filled me with hope that our love and marriage would endure. I never would have started hormones if she had balked at it or put up a "choose this or that" demand.
But now that Im 7 months into hrt and have been living at home as a woman(still go to work in guy mode).....her resolve is seemingly fading and she is re-evaluating the marriage.

I sound like Im trying to convince myself that I can be the "man" she needs and she wont accept me as Alicia, but I DONT WANT TO DIE!!!
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Telanas » Mon May 21, 2012 7:49 pm

Okay...yea... We are both going through the same thing at the same time. LOL seriously.

After she left for work I found myself holding our wedding picture this morning for like 5min. And started to cry and said I missed her out loud.

I know I can't de-transition though. And I know ill crack up if we split. But I also know ill cherish every day with her for as long as I can.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby BecomingSusan » Mon May 21, 2012 9:24 pm

This thread really touches me deeply. For me, though, what you are going through now, I experienced starting last summer. I chose to transition. My wife and I separated. My children refused to speak to me. I attempted suicide. I knew terrible loneliness. I cried often. It was truly a terrible winter for me.

But, things got better. My transition is going reasonably well. My wife and I have committed to remain friends for life. My children are starting to resolve their anger, with the help of my wife. We are about to settle our divorce. Suicidal thoughts still enter my mind, but less often than they did when I was at my lowest point, and I have been getting counseling. I'm still very lonely, but I do now have some acquaintances and friends. I still cry, but not as often.

I do think sometimes about the path I did not choose: not transitioning and staying in the male role. I could have done it, I suppose. I keep thinking, however, that the most likely outcome would have been my descending into depression and probably an early death. As difficult as things have been, I know that changing gender is right for me.

The odd thing is, I can't say that I've found happiness yet. I do, by far, prefer living as a woman. I do believe that the path I chose does have the better likelihood of leading to happiness for me. I know that if I had not transitioned that I would have regretted it for the rest of my life.

But, the story of my transition is not yet completely told. I don't know yet if it will have a happy ending. Life in the real world doesn't always end happily ever after. But life does go on.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Mon May 21, 2012 10:13 pm

BecomingSusan wrote: I know that if I had not transitioned that I would have regretted it for the rest of my life.


Another fear that eats at my very soul!!!! I know who I am and I know I could have deep regrets later in life if I didnt follow transition. Of course, that can be said about following transitions path and losing my wife. I'd regret that as soon as it happened and for the rest of my life.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Tara » Mon May 21, 2012 11:20 pm

Here is the entirety of the quote, which is originally from the novel Dune, by Frank Herbert. See how the fear is dealt with.

Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
~*~ Tara

“What do you fear, lady?” he asked.
“A cage,” she said. “To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Cricket » Mon May 21, 2012 11:56 pm

Your wife needs to find a new therapist. Setting aside your transition, and her feelings about it, no reputable counselor would send someone home with such instructions in the first session. The therapist does not know enough about your wife, let alone the complexities of her relationship with you. It's unethical for this counselor to do what s/he did, one simply cannot assimilate sufficient information in a one hour period to make such an informed decision.

My recommendation would be for both of you to set aside your personal therapists and find a couples counselor with experience in transgender issues or non-traditional relationships.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Someone Else » Tue May 22, 2012 2:55 am

AliciaRyanne wrote:Id say there is an 80% chance she will leave if I continue on with transition. No idea as yet if she would entertain the idea of me stopping hrt or not...there's no guarantee she would accept that and promise forever after either.

I am not so interested in what your projections are. How does she feel? You do realize that your spouse transitions too right? Be as supportive to her that you want her to be to you.

By the way, my wife asked me if I would stay if she decided to transition. I said probably not. Then I thought about it and said I'd probably stick around till she started growing hair in guy spots. Then we talked about it a bit and figured that we only had about 10 years of *** left before we both started losing interest anyway and I conceded that I probably would stay since she is my best friend and I would never stop loving her. *** is just a bonus in our relationship anyway. What we have isn't based on *** and since my E has gotten higher and her E has naturally gotten lower we have more in common than ever.

I got needy too, I am also high maintenance too. It happened to me. I can't explain it. You know? I sort of realized how needy I had become and made myself more available to her in response. It helped me be more attentive and supportive. If someone is supportive and attentive to your moods would you want to go elsewhere? Sex is just sex and that is also something to work through but emotional support is the key to a relationship.

I feel like it is us versus the world most of the time. Do everything you can to be supportive and understanding for her. She is likely trying for you as well. I can not imagine my life without that support. I'd be totally lost without my wife. I get where you are coming from. Just don't project failure. She still needs you to be strong.

I get so damn emotional over this stuff. Sorry, I can't help it. Tell her what she means to you Alicia, treat every day like it is your last and make it last forever.
✇ ☯ ♓ ♀
Accept everything about yourself--I mean everything, You are you and that is the beginning and the end--no apologies, no regrets. -- Clark Moustakas
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 22, 2012 10:47 am

Cricket wrote:Your wife needs to find a new therapist. Setting aside your transition, and her feelings about it, no reputable counselor would send someone home with such instructions in the first session. The therapist does not know enough about your wife, let alone the complexities of her relationship with you. It's unethical for this counselor to do what s/he did, one simply cannot assimilate sufficient information in a one hour period to make such an informed decision.

My recommendation would be for both of you to set aside your personal therapists and find a couples counselor with experience in transgender issues or non-traditional relationships.


Cricket...I agree with what you said entirely. The problem is, it would not be seen as an attempt to find common ground for my wife and I to see a different therapist together, but of an attempt to NOT allow her to "see" the therapist of her choosing. Thus, it would further in my wife's mind anyway, the BS this therapist is putting in her head.

Really, how would you respond if someone said to you that you should get a different therapist because the one you've got is filling your head with mush? Especially when its the first person you've divulged your inner most feelings to???

I spoke of this to my own therapist and she did think in the context that I phrased it, that it would be un-ethical to implant one's own agenda in a patient's thinking. They'd lose their license. The issue is, said therapist that does such a thing would have to be reported. I do believe to an extent this is happening with my wife, but I cannot be the one to report it as I wasnt present. How would I then get my wife to see the truth of this without her turning her back on me?
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 22, 2012 11:00 am

Someone Else wrote:I am not so interested in what your projections are. How does she feel? You do realize that your spouse transitions too right? Be as supportive to her that you want her to be to you.


She says she loves me, but cannot reassure me(per her therapists instructions)

Someone Else wrote:By the way, my wife asked me if I would stay if she decided to transition. I said probably not. Then I thought about it and said I'd probably stick around till she started growing hair in guy spots. Then we talked about it a bit and figured that we only had about 10 years of *** left before we both started losing interest anyway and I conceded that I probably would stay since she is my best friend and I would never stop loving her. *** is just a bonus in our relationship anyway. What we have isn't based on *** and since my E has gotten higher and her E has naturally gotten lower we have more in common than ever.


My wife has repeatedly said that she's not that sexual, so the loss of penetration sex with a man should not be that high of a loss. I have told her I was worried about that aspect of our marriage and before the therapist garbage, she would always say dont worry about it, Im ok.

Someone Else wrote:I got needy too, I am also high maintenance too. It happened to me. I can't explain it. You know? I sort of realized how needy I had become and made myself more available to her in response. It helped me be more attentive and supportive. If someone is supportive and attentive to your moods would you want to go elsewhere? Sex is just sex and that is also something to work through but emotional support is the key to a relationship.
Do everything you can to be supportive and understanding for her. She is likely trying for you as well. I can not imagine my life without that support. I'd be totally lost without my wife. I get where you are coming from. Just don't project failure. She still needs you to be strong.
Tell her what she means to you Alicia, treat every day like it is your last and make it last forever.


I too can see where I have become needy. Needy for her love and attention. Sometimes she gives me the look of why are you bothering me so much and that just hurts even more. "You've been wanting kisses alot lately"...with a quizzical gaze towards me...along with a stare of kinda keep your distance a bit.

I have definitely become much more attentive to her, almost to the point of feeling like the puppy groveling for attention. I tell her constantly what she means to me and she just scoffs it off and says ive got rose colored glasses on...especially when I compliment her on how she looks. Her own self worth is an issue for her and that translates to lack of acceptance of my feelings towards her when I say how beautiful she is and how my heart beats for her alone and that she's the center of my world.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Cricket » Tue May 22, 2012 11:45 am

AliciaRyanne wrote:Really, how would you respond if someone said to you that you should get a different therapist because the one you've got is filling your head with mush? Especially when its the first person you've divulged your inner most feelings to???

I spoke of this to my own therapist and she did think in the context that I phrased it, that it would be un-ethical to implant one's own agenda in a patient's thinking. They'd lose their license. The issue is, said therapist that does such a thing would have to be reported. I do believe to an extent this is happening with my wife, but I cannot be the one to report it as I wasnt present. How would I then get my wife to see the truth of this without her turning her back on me?


Hold on a second, you're swinging to the opposite end of the spectrum here. Just as the therapist lacks sufficient information regarding your wife and your relationship, you lack sufficient information about the therapist. I'm not saying that s/he's filling her head with mush, or that s/he has an agenda. There's not enough data to support such an argument. It might seem that way, from an emotional perspective, which is why it's necessary to be objective here. If you confront your wife about the therapist avoid making accusations. The therapist might be pro-transition, and the goal might be to help your wife adjust to this new reality. Conversely, s/he may be transphobic, and is looking to steer your wife away from you. As of right now you cannot make an informed decision regarding which is which. You're too emotionally involved, and understandably so. Question the therapist's methods, point out that the therapist is sending her home with homework without even understanding precisely where your wife is as an individual, a partner, and a mother.

Therapy has stages. What your wife's therapist is doing is the equivalent of writing an HRT letter after the first visit. Use that as an example of why the therapist's methods might be questionable.

Regardless, your wife's therapist is going to do what they feel is best for your wife. Even if she finds a new therapist, there may be rough patches ahead that leave you an emotional wreck. Take a few deep breaths and realize that even though she says she's 100% supportive, she's going through the same emotional roller coasters you're feeling right now.

Avoid making this all about you. Take the time to focus on what she needs emotionally and mentally, even if that slows down your transition. Don't stop HRT, or start purging things, make it a team effort.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Randi » Tue May 22, 2012 12:29 pm

Perhaps I can offer some insight.

I think I know what your wife and her therapist fear most.... It's that the man she married will cease to exist. The death metaphor you started this topic with is most appropriate.

Another fear is that as you become a woman, you will seek out a male lover or spouse, and she would have no way to compete with that.

Even if she accepts you as female, yet essentially the same person, there is the problem of social embarrassment. Most problematical is that you become some sort of caricature a woman, who was obviously once a man. This is potentially more embarrassing than being seen as a lesbian.

Of course your ability to pass as a women is a two-edged sword. What if you are actually more beautiful and feminine that her? What if she is seen as the butch partner in a lesbian relationship?

My legs are much nicer looking than my wife's. Her boobs are much larger, but sag a lot because she's had them for 40 years. Mine are new and perky. I'm 62 years old, but estrogen diet and exercise has rolled back the calendar on my appearance. It's one thing to be seen as the feminine half of a lesbian couple, but would be hard to take if she becomes the butch. (Horrors!)

What your wife needs to know is that your essential personality is not going to change. That you will still be there. That you are not going away to be replaced by some strange women she's never met.

My wife knows that my essential personality will not change, that my love endures and that I will care for her and our daughter until the day I die. Nothing else much matters. They do want some reasonable facsimile of a man to walk down the aisle at our daughter's eventual wedding. I can do that.

The quotes from "Dune" are most appropriate. It's fear and doubt that are driving everything else here.

I, for one, believe you can make this work. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Randi
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 22, 2012 1:16 pm

I appreciate the upbeat response Randi. Funny...my current legal name being Randy. Its almost as if Im listening to myself LOL.

What you say seems true and very similar to my situation. I do have better legs then my wife(of which she's amde that comment several times). She does have much larger breasts...but being 37, has had considerably more time for gravity to work against her.

She has made comments in the past(before all this therapy crap started on her first visit) about who was or would be the butch. Initially she was labeling me in that regard and Im fine with that, even though I view myself as a lipstick lesbian. Slowly she started to point to herself as being the butch side of things.....possibly because circumstances lend that some credence since she makes twice the money I do, cut her hair short(of which I think she looks absolutely beautiful with) and is now getting hit on by lesbian women frequently.
On the other hand, Ive always been the dominant one at home, but her personality is a driver at work...the head honcho. As she sees me becoming more fem, shes starting to assert more dominance at home.

As for lovers or other stuff of that nature. I have repeatedly told her I want nothing else but her. Ive told her time and again men hold no interest for me.
As for passing, while i do worry about it somewhat, I dont think it will be a problem. Im already getting mam'ed in regular street clothes from time to time when Im NOT dressing femme. Had a leather biker jacket on last week, no make up, jeans on and the gas station attendant called me mam before I opened my mouth. Thats the part Im concerned with is voice...but thats a different topic entirely.

I do also try to tell her I am the same person inside.

A lot of what I have said is definitely paranoia based on fear, but much of that fear is based on what I perceive is a distancing she is doing from me emotionally. I could of course be reading some of her actions and words wrong and therefore overracting at times, but there's enough eye-brow raising things to make the fear flourish

On another note, my son is graduating this week from HS and so it is my duty of course to appear to be the "dad" and a "man" to everyone outside of this house during relatives visiting, the ceremony, etc.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby FFChristie » Tue May 22, 2012 1:58 pm

Does your wife know you post on this board? Maybe letting her see how truly devastated you are because of this situation will help. And maybe her seeing all of us trying to help you through this will help her see what a deserving person you really are.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Telanas » Tue May 22, 2012 4:12 pm

Are you often depressed around your wife?
My wife says that's the kicker for her. And she has a lot more trouble coping in those circumstances.

She says what scares her the most is my "change of attitude" which I only can see a little, but she says I'm not as easy going as I use to be. If anything I think its the stress getting to me. But since I dont see this about myself as much its hard to say. She also says I've been acting really needy lately. (Which I can totally see). And that bothers her because she says I'm smothering her to a degree. I think this has all added up to making things more difficult for her.

FFChristie wrote:Does your wife know you post on this board? Maybe letting her see how truly devastated you are because of this situation will help. And maybe her seeing all of us trying to help you through this will help her see what a deserving person you really are.

My wife read a couple of my posts and couldn't take it. (about coming out to my parents, etc.) She misunderstood some of the things I said and it was (for lack of a better example) like a long distance relationship where she added emotion where there was none, or glossed over things that I think were important. She even read between the lines and filled in blanks to get a completely different impression.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I would offer for her to read, but make sure you have a follow up discussion too. Text is soooooo complicated when trying to sort through relationships...
--Telanas (Summer Anne)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 22, 2012 4:18 pm

She used to reads the boards here, but hasnt lately.
I have thought about having her read this thread specifically, however, should I do that, then the possibility of "offering" to go back to being Randy in an attempt to "save the marriage" would then be presented to her without me actually offering.
Having that knowledge and then knowing without me having offered to do so would seed her mind that I am considering doing so. Id expect at that point she'd latch on to that to try and MAKE that happen. Thus, that would not appear genuine and AND without her figuring out where she stands as far as me being Alicia is concerned...she wouldnt have to deal with it at all emotionally....and therefore Id never know if she'd accept Alicia.

I do tend to see that I overthink things a lot, but, in this case...IF I am inferring things incorrectly to some degree, that would also create problems.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 22, 2012 4:24 pm

Telanas wrote:Are you often depressed around your wife?
My wife says that's the kicker for her. And she has a lot more trouble coping in those circumstances.

She says what scares her the most is my "change of attitude" which I only can see a little, but she says I'm not as easy going as I use to be. If anything I think its the stress getting to me. But since I dont see this about myself as much its hard to say. She also says I've been acting really needy lately. (Which I can totally see). And that bothers her because she says I'm smothering her to a degree. I think this has all added up to making things more difficult for her.


Yes I do get depressed occasionally when the idea of being without her presses hard on my mind.
She has made the comment though that I used to be somewhat of an ass and hard to get along with at times. But now, Im much easier to get along with and more fun to be around. Those comments were made though, before she started therapy...so obviously there was some hidden aggravation, frustration, anger, etc that pushed her to finally go to a therapist.

Telanas wrote:My wife read a couple of my posts..... She misunderstood some of the things I said and it was (for lack of a better example) like a long distance relationship where she added emotion where there was none, or glossed over things that I think were important. She even read between the lines and filled in blanks to get a completely different impression.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I would offer for her to read, but make sure you have a follow up discussion too. Text is soooooo complicated when trying to sort through relationships...


Yes the written word can be misunderstood all too easily when emotions are involved.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Randi » Tue May 22, 2012 5:15 pm

My wife may not exactly be happy with having an MTF transsexual for a spouse, but she has definitely seen an improvement in my personality. As a male I always had to take control of everything, make all the important decisions and tell others what to do. I didn't really enjoy that, but it was what I thought the world expected of me.

Since I shrugged off that male exterior I don't have to be the one in control. I can be weak or indecisive. I can be dependent on others. I don't have to have an answer or solution to every problem. I can still make valid, informed suggestions, but I don't tell anyone what to do anymore.

That's a subtle, but very real change for the better. It's much easier to be around me not that I've replaced all that testosterone with estrogen. I can smile at other people and take the time to listen.

Like most women, she has a long memory and doesn't forget anything. When she brings up something bad I did in the past I say "That was the old (pet name)".

Randi


AliciaRyanne wrote:She has made the comment though that I used to be somewhat of an ass and hard to get along with at times. But now, Im much easier to get along with and more fun to be around. Those comments were made though, before she started therapy...so obviously there was some hidden aggravation, frustration, anger, etc that pushed her to finally go to a therapist.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Thu May 24, 2012 4:48 pm

Randi wrote:My wife may not exactly be happy with having an MTF transsexual for a spouse, but she has definitely seen an improvement in my personality. As a male I always had to take control of everything, make all the important decisions and tell others what to do. I didn't really enjoy that, but it was what I thought the world expected of me.

Since I shrugged off that male exterior I don't have to be the one in control. I can be weak or indecisive. I can be dependent on others. I don't have to have an answer or solution to every problem. I can still make valid, informed suggestions, but I don't tell anyone what to do anymore.

That's a subtle, but very real change for the better. It's much easier to be around me not that I've replaced all that testosterone with estrogen. I can smile at other people and take the time to listen.

Like most women, she has a long memory and doesn't forget anything. When she brings up something bad I did in the past I say "That was the old (pet name)".

Randi


Yep...I kinda had to be the one controlling most things around the house before also.....I have softened considerably since realizing my female inner self and then more so after starting hrt. I just hope my wife can bring herself to decide having me as a wife is more positive then negative.

Thats cute....."That was the old (pet name)". Im sure I will have occasion to use that as ive done some stupid things in the past.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 29, 2012 9:37 am

Starting to wonder if a marriage is worth saving if the other half begins treating you like less of a person. Nothing I do anymore seems to be right and I get blamed for the stupidest things thats not even in my control.

And if I get upset at being treated this way, then its the "Its funny how you get mad when I tell you how I feel." type of response.

I kinda believe there's a threshold in a relationship where once that's passed, one or both parties just start being mean and anything, no matter how trivial, sets them off. Its like they WANT to be mad at you to build up anger as a wall and self protection mode emotionally for a perceived imminent failure of said relationship.
If they can blame YOU, then they can believe to themselves that the eventual breakup wasnt their fault in any way.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby elliebean » Tue May 29, 2012 9:44 am

AliciaRyanne wrote:Its like they WANT to be mad at you to build up anger as a wall and self protection mode emotionally for a perceived imminent failure of said relationship.
If they can blame YOU, then they can believe to themselves that the eventual breakup wasnt their fault in any way.

Exactly, and at any cost to the other person.

(still bitter after 2 years)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby BecomingSusan » Tue May 29, 2012 10:01 am

Or, it's pushing you away. They want it to end but don't want to be the one to make the decision, so they try to get you to make the decision, which also puts the blame on you. It's consistent with feeling like the victim.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby ShivKitty » Tue May 29, 2012 11:57 am

When reading these responses, I have to say that it's quite depressing to hear about the failing or failed marriages. Although, the friendships that come of these things sometimes gives me hope that the person you agreed to spend your life with will still be there.

I came out to my wife eight months ago and her initial reactions were full of doom and gloom about our future. It was everything we've all heard before from "I'm not a lesbian" to "The kids need a father" and every stab in the dark about my sexual orientation that you can fathom from someone who should really know after twelve years.

Since then, she has discovered some parts of herself that she didn't think existed. Her ability to accept "alternate lifestyles" all looked good on paper until reality put the situation squarely in the middle of our marriage. However, her love won out and we are still together. She's also very supportive, having taken me out to get clothes, make-up, and laser treatments. I also started HRT six months ago and she's taking the changes quite well.

I think that the turning point in her mind was informed by A) the fact that I had thought this through for five years before coming out to her and B) she got over her fear of it all, especially the unfounded fear of me changing into a stranger to her and the kids, so the bigotry that had reared its ugly head early on lost its fuel. She realized that what I was going through wasn't a choice. That also helped immensely (C?), because we both wished that our marriage could continue on as before. We were happy in our marriage, even if I was not happy with the world treating me with so many confusing signals.

I'm not trying to say that anyone else's spouse has any bigotry within them, since I don't know them, but perhaps the fear that fuels their harsh words and attitude can be worked through by your unwavering reassurances of love along with all the information they can currently handle. People like to hear an informed plan and know that you carefully considered them when creating it, even if it isn't what they would want for themselves. You might try laying out which compromises you have already made and which you would be willing to do, however temporarily.

At the very least, I'd be willing to bet that a friendship can be negotiated out of the whole situation. They do still love you, after all! I may be looking at that future still, since SRS is definitely not off the table and that was cited as the "final stage."

Would one consider that dying? It feels like it when I think about what that loss of intimacy would mean to my heart. I feel your pain and I think that the wishing well she goes to has bad water. Or said another way, throwing money at a paid friend (psychotherapist) and wishing that things will be "solved" while the image they reflect is comprised largely of one's darkest fears isn't productive. A marriage counselor would at least be able to see you two interact and be able to hear more than one take on the situation. And some questions and subjects that come up with a third party, paid or unpaid, may help you both understand each other better.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 29, 2012 1:58 pm

initially my wife WAS all doom and gloom when I told her 18 months ago. A few weeks later she said she accepted the situation and wanted to remain married. She repeatedly patted herself on the back for how well she was accepting the situation and voice that to me...like see? Most other wives wouldnt be as accomodating. Well, Im beginning to believe that was a smoke screen. Like..she really didnt come to an acceptance at all...more of a denial. And now that a few physical signs are becomming more obvious, its forcing ehr to yet again have to face it.

My wife has taken me shopping for clothes numerous times. We have really enjoyed going shoe shopping together and always maked sure to pick out a few for me or convince me to get a pair even if Ive stated we are here for you not me.
She has asked if I needed help with getting or doing makeup in the past, but not now. She has also gone with me several times for laser treatments as well as electrolysis. But, that was then.

Things don't seem to be the same anymore. In one sense, it's like the preverbial light going off in a trangender person's head and forever after things are different, except in this case it is my wife's mind, not of a transgender. Since that first therapy appointment she had, everything has been tense between us and I see the relationship falling apart around me with no ability to stop it. She snaps at me quickly, but then lays her head on my shoulder. She blames me for something breaking and then seeing that it upset me that I had no control over said item breaking, yet still being accused of "doing something" to it...she pours on the coals and reinforces that shes angry the item is broken and its my fault.
When I say Im upset about that, then she screams out "drama!!!!" again trying to lay blame on me and her playing the victim role.

My parents had difficulties in their marriage and my dad tried to get counseling for the both of them. Unfortunately, my mom wasnt too keen on the idea. After only a few sessions, my mom refused to go anymore and the marriage fell to ruins.
I see a similar path approaching for my wife and I. And what sucks is Ive been pouring my heart out to her and giving everything Ive got, but the aggravation and feeling of dread and the sky is falling scenario Im so scared of(which i think is beginning) is ALSO taking a tole on me where I am starting to get angry at my wife for doing this to me(the drag me through the mud make me feel crap for being me you suck type of thing)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Ariel » Tue May 29, 2012 9:59 pm

Alicia, Im really sorry for the troubles your going through, I can fully understand the pain your going through as Im very much in the same situation. Its the responses I got from you and others that have helped keep me going, and I hope that all of our responses are helping you in your time of need. As far as the decision to continue transition only you can decide that. For me when she told me that " all these years I knew there was something just not right about you, everytime you would have a few drinks you acted like your gay or something". For the record any man who acts a little feminine is gay to her. Anyhow I figured that if I tried my best to hide it and wasnt successful then theres no point in going back to that routine. No matter how much we love somebody it is still their decision which path in life they will choose just as we choose ours,but we where trans when they met us we just didnt display it in our physical appearance, hopefully they can see past our outward appearance and still love us for who we are inside......Hang in there; :cry:
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Tue May 29, 2012 11:29 pm

The weight of this whole ordeal is making it hard to even smile about anything more. Its more like drudgeery at best. I used to get excited just to put an estradiol patch in place on mons and thurs(two per week simulatenously).

Now....even the fun of doing that has been taken away due to an ever present sense of living in a depressive state of the unknown.

I am beginning to get worried about my own sanity. I could never understand how someone could think suicide was an option before. While its still not something I consider an out for myself...I now have a full understanding of how someone can fall into the depths of despair to the point of taking their own life. In effect, I can now see that is IS possible my own sensibilities could be compromised by such extreme emotional distress to a point what once was "oh that could never happen to me" to....oh shit.....that COULD happen to me and I can totally feel the pain brewing. How much can I withstand?
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Zilla » Wed May 30, 2012 12:18 pm

I'm seeing something I think has been overlooked a lot, though Christie touched on it:

Have you tried telling your wife about how you feel, entirely?

I think you really need to get it all out. Why are you afraid of talking with her about how you feel, especially the detransition part?

Things are stuck as they are, and you're holding things back from her. That's not good for relationships. Especially from the way she takes your compliments, I think she's not fully trusting you, and... I have to say, with good reason.

You should let her know exactly how you feel about this. Don't present the idea of detransition as an offer, but bring it up as an example of how you feel. I think you two need to spend some time talking about how each of you feels about the other.

Her therapist may have been right to tell her to withhold support, in a sense. I think it's exposed some underlying issues in your relationship, that I think you two can work out if you're both up-front about your feelings. It's one of those times where you two need to talk completely openly and honestly with each other, listen to each other (Make sure to do this! She likely has some VERY important things to say, and listening will help her work through those, as well as help her listen to you!), and find out what you both want.

I think you're holding back because you're afraid that bringing it up will risk losing her, or compromising on your ideals. Unfortunately, that fear is causing a LOT of damage, and may be pushing you toward that actually happening. Your wife loves you, and her previous support shouldn't be written off, but it shouldn't be taken for granted either. Let her know exactly what she is to you, and it will show her she can trust you to be honest about your feelings.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Telanas » Wed May 30, 2012 12:40 pm

I've found that I need to do things on my own to be happy and relax occasionally. Go on hikes and get outdoors is what does it for me. Then I can come home and handle the stress a bit better. I feel like I'm doing more than my fair share of making things work. But I'm sure she feels the same.

After that I notice that time with my wife goes more smoothly and we end up having more fun as a family.

If I'm tired or worn down I don't seem to be able to let the little things slide and end up perusing the confrontations.

My wife has been trying really hard to cope, and I know it must feel impossible for her. But occasionally she says something that reminds me that she does care. (like your wife putting her head on your shoulder). That goes a long ways for me, and I try to be silently forgiving.

Yesterday she refereed to me as "she" for the first time in public. I almost cried. Because I know deep down she is trying to piece her life back together. and in may ways has more work to do then I do to regain some sense of "normalcy"

--Summer
--Telanas (Summer Anne)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby ShivKitty » Thu May 31, 2012 12:14 am

Please don't consider such a nasty path, Alicia. The world is still turning and there are precious few enough of us as it is. I haven't been here long, but what input of yours I have run across has always made me think and I value that immensely.

Speaking of which, I was thinking about your situation a lot lately. To me, it sounds like your wife is challenging your feminine role in the relationship, blowing up at your deferment and emotional neediness. That isn't to say that your needs aren't worth tending to, it just may be that she's feeling her role is being usurped. Her belligerence may be a plea for you to show some backbone and delineate your plan for your shared future, being certain to clearly consider her feelings and desires all the while. You need respect, so demand it. As my mom would say, "It's time to put on your big girl panties." If you want to stay married, show her what she's going to get for a spouse!

My wife didn't marry me for what's between my legs. She wanted an equal. I think that what you both may find a great help, is moving toward being totally independent people who choose to be together. Needing someone creates a hell of a lot of pressure and resentment. Choosing to be with someone you don't need allows you both to breathe easier, knowing that love isn't based on what someone can do for you. Even if it is clear that that isn't the case, it still places a doubt.

If you or your spouse ever thinks, "Gee, they'd be lost without me," then you are likely going to have the pressure of guilt or the burden of responsibility looming over all that you do. I know my wife would be just fine without me, just like I'd be fine without her (after the hurt of separation, naturally). It's that knowledge that keeps us working hard to ensure that the other person has no reason to walk away from a love more powerful than either of us have ever known.

As always you may scrap my whole post as trash without any hard feelings if I misread the situation. 8)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Thu May 31, 2012 8:28 pm

Shivkitty...I think you make some good points as well as a few others recently.

I am not wating to confront my wife with all my heartache fears and such.....not because I wouldnt compromise on anything...more so because I think it would be bring about the end much sooner.

She isnt ressuring me about the future because she doesnt know whether I as a woman fit in to her idea of what constitutes marriage to HER.
That being said......while a breakup would be the most extreme pain ever felt, eventually, yes I would survive providing I coul make it through the severe depression of the loss.

If I try to demand support as you put it, she states Im being needy...so basically Im stuck in a wait and see loop...but that is killing me internally.

I dont need to be the feminine role in the relationship...and she should know that. I still do the typically "manly" chores, treat her like a princess, etc. While I have no intention of looking butch when all is said and done, Im fine with her being MORE lipstick then me if that makes sense.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby ShivKitty » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:47 am

I'm totally there with you on the lipstick comment. I couldn't compete with my wife for femininity in any way and she's about as soft butch as they come. I got her a Sawzall for Mother's Day and she can't wait to find something to saw into little pieces. My Power Tool Princess. God, she'd kill me if she knew I had just called her that. 8b Even so, I will likely only be thinner, not prettier.

I don't think you should demand support, but I do think each and every person is due basic respect and from the accounts you provided, that is not happening for you any more. It is well within your rights to ask to be talked to like a human being with thoughts and feelings that may differ wildly from hers.

Your situation changed drastically with your wife's PT visits. I don't know what you could do about that except ask her what the change in her position on your relationship is about. She means the world to you, so keep in mind that it's easy to let a relationship fall apart - all you have to do is nothing. Fighting for your relationship shows you care enough about her to risk saying the wrong thing in the hopes of salvaging your future together.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby Someone Else » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:50 am

Hi Alicia 8)

I finally took the time to read through most of this.
Sorry to be so self involved. Plus I do try to stay out of people's stuff as much as I can.

I just wanted to point out that my wife stopped being so involved when it became somewhat "normal" for us. She went to a couple electro appointments just to see for herself that it was on the up and up and to put eyes on this person I was spending so much time with. There is no way she would be bothered to do this again.

She went to my first endo appointment for pretty much the same reason. She called him a quack even though he was doctor of the year a few times. I switched doctors anyway. I'm glad I did. I like the one I have now much better. He is much more thorough.

Female pronouns, probably never. Name, maybe some day. I stopped responding to my old name. Baby works for now. :thumb:

My roles around the house haven't changed. I still have to fill the husband slot. She isn't going to do it. I call it penis discrimination. I'm better at cutting the grass and fixing stuff anyway. I like things just so and everything gets done with a little flair. I usually get comments like, "That's cute" or "That looks pretty." Minor victories but they are mine to relish.

She still likes to pick out my clothes though since I tend to like to show a bit more flesh. I'm 42 and she is right but I can't help it. I have nice legs and don't like to hide them. I do shop more often myself than I did. Simple fact is that I won't be an embarrassment anymore. It took some time for us to zero in on my look. I know what I'm doing now.

So to me the hands off stuff just says to me that she is more confident with your abilities and trusts you with what is going on. I still get the eye roll when I use too much liner. I like lots of liner she doesn't. She doesn't like it when other women use too much makeup either. It isn't just a liner thing. It's just about being overdone for Walmart. :lol: So generally if we have a date (we still date) I wear no liner.

Food for thought for the two of you:


So the feelings of a breakdown may just be symptoms of personal growth for the both of you. You are her husband so she is transitioning with you. You have a good grasp on that. It is understandable that she too is changing. It is good for the relationship that you both not fall into old comfortable dysfunctional patterns and grow together rather than apart.
George Hartwell M.Sc., Life Transformation Therapist wrote:Disintegration may be followed by integration and consolidation in a healthier place.
That is what you are shooting for from what I gather. It isn't the easy road but it's it is worth taking the one less traveled by.

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Accept everything about yourself--I mean everything, You are you and that is the beginning and the end--no apologies, no regrets. -- Clark Moustakas
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:30 pm

Kind and supportive words. Thank you:)
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:36 am

Zilla wrote:Things are stuck as they are, and you're holding things back from her. That's not good for relationships. Especially from the way she takes your compliments, I think she's not fully trusting you, and... I have to say, with good reason.

Her therapist may have been right to tell her to withhold support, in a sense. I think it's exposed some underlying issues in your relationship, that I think you two can work out if you're both up-front about your feelings.


Kindly refrain from being an arm chair therapist. You DONT know me or my wife and your statements saying good reason for her not to trust me....utter garbage.
We've known eachother for 20+ years. We know eachother better then most ppl thats been married longer.......

I knew what the end result would be of having a conversation about the detrans part or whats going on with us period.
And it went exactlky as I had foreseen it. So....dont take things the wrong way, but please dont post here anymore Zilla. You DONT know us.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby AliciaRyanne » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:24 am

So.......

This is what happened yesterday....

We are in bed as any previous normal morning and she turns to me and says this:
"I just want you to know that you are my best friend and always will be no matter what happens."

I asked....what are you trying to say to me?

"Just that your my best friend, just like my Mom is also my best friend."

My response(I already knew where this was going)....."what does that mean for US?"

She says..."I dont want to answer that right now."

Me...."that tells me you dont want me or to be with me anymore"

Her..."I dont think I can be married to a woman. Ive been struggling with this for over a year."

Me..."Why didnt you tell me this right up front instead of leading me to believe everything was going to be ok. I wouldnt have started hormones had I known this. But you said and repeatedly that we were OK and you wanted me to follow being me..and not to worry. Constantly you said not to worry."

Her.."your right...I should have said this before. I didnt want to hurt your feelings and didnt want you to know I was struggling with this....you've never been happier."

Me..."your right...I was never happier because I thought you were there for me. I thought you supported me and loved me and everything would be ok. Thats what you said and I believed it."

Her..."im sorry"

Me...."You mean everything to me. Your my world. You are why I wake up in the morning. I love you enough to stop this path and stop transition. I will do that because I cant fathom being without you."

Her..."Thats not fair to you. I have to live for me, but you also have to live for YOU!"

Me..."fair or not...thats what I will do. You have this dream of growing old and being the Honey and someone being the Papa of the extended family. I will be that for you."

Her...."you think you can live as a man?"

Me...."Its not my first choice...but I will do it for us."

Her..."Thats not fair to you at all."

Me..."Ive been having to weigh things lately. I knew what was coming. I could feel it even when you said i was imagining things...I KNEW. So Ive had to do more soul searching and figuring out which is more important.....being the woman I feel I am or having you as my wife till death tears us apart. I CHOOSE you!!"

Her...."Thats what ive been wanting to hear...that you CHOOSE."

Me.."Will you stay??"

her...."I dont know"
"Now gimmie a mooch so we can head down stairs and make breakfast."

There was obviously a bit more in the conversation then that and a lot of tears on both sides.....but.....nothing has been resolved. She still doesnt KNOW if whe will stay even if I stop hormones.

However, it seems her demeaner towards me has changed yet again. It didnt take long for anger to start welling up inside me though. She doesnt accept ME as ME. I had to get out of the house for awile so i went flying.
I just cant tell what the hell is going on anymore. She's acting like virtually nothing is wrong and giving me attention like she used to ...to a degree...which has been lacking lately. However, I dont know how to act right now. Im seething inside because I dont want to give up on being ME. I dont want to stop hormones, but I dont want to lose her either.

I guess Im mad because she lied to me over the last year...telling me something oppoosite of what she was actually feeling. And now the marriage is still in an unknown state. She may still leave even if I detransition. She has mad no commitment to me regarding that at all., yet she's giving me mixed signals....

Going to bed last nice she said my body was cold as Ice. Miss ICE....how can someone be that cold?"

"How come you didnt get in the shower with me? She asked this morning.

And Im "WTF is going on here?"

================================

I have a therapy session todsay at 230....but...my wife has invited herself to go along. This has never happened before and I dont think the therapist is going to like the surprise. Im also unsure of how I should dress considering my wife will be coming along.

On one hand, I DO NOT want to stop hormones and therefore would prefer to dress as myself....a nice skirt and blouse, etc....but at the same time dont want to give the impression to the wife I am unwilling to try to suppress the dysphoria.

I believe to some extent the reason my wife is still giving me loving attention in some regards is because she cant bring herself to just let go.

I really dont know if I can let go of being myself either. This damn impass is killing me.
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Re: I may have to let myself die

Postby BecomingSusan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:40 pm

I know this is so hard for you, but it at least sounds like there is some movement. It seems she's doing a lot of processing in her own mind. Of course you know that she has to do this at her own speed. It may seem like she misled you early on. She probably gave you the best answer she had at the time. Now she's giving you a different answer, which is a better answer in that it is closer to the eventual answer. In time, there will be a final result. You probably already know that, though.

You probably also know that, even though this time of uncertainty is hard to endure for you, and probably for her, too, it's probably the best thing you could be doing. Whatever the result may be, you two are going to reach that point together, and that's a wonderful thing. It almost assures that you will continue to have a relationship with her. The nature of the relationship may change, but I think she will continue to be part of your life for a very, very long time.

I'm wishing you well and that you find the strength to keep going.
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain
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