Transition In Middle Age

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Transition In Middle Age

Postby Wynternight » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:23 pm

I'd like the opinions of people who have transitioned in their middle years, mid 40's, that kind of thing.

I'm 42 and taking steps towards transitioning in the next few years. Step the First is LapSleeve Bariatric Surgery next Spring followed (hopefully) by HRT and electrrolysis. I imagine I'll be 43-44 when I begin the RLT.

For years I've had this crushing feeling of having wasted or lost a lot of my life by not transitioning younger so I'm wondering at the perceived quality of life post-transition for folks around my age.

Any and all thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby corvus.corax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:27 pm

I qualify as a middle-aged transitioner.
That feeling you describe? The "wasted life" business?
Totally.
Now lose it. Immediately. Or you'll waste more just in the wallowing.

My own quality of life is far better. I'm not insane anymore.





PS: Oh, and start electrolysis earlier rather than later. Like, now.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Auphiel » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:37 pm

I fit this too to some degree, I'm looking over the edge at 40, it's there.

Absolutely, as corvus.corax said, begin electrolysis ASAP. Find a good one too as I already have lovely pits and spots from my first eletrologist. Hope they go away.

Definitely forget about the past. It is estimated that we who are transitioning are a tiny segment of overall trans folk. It helps me to think, "at least I am transitioning! Some unfortunate people never do!"

It has had a tremendous positive influence in my life since I started thinking seriously about transitioning a few years ago. My therapists, while some did hinder my transition, still benefited me greatly! I take care of myself much better now.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Tracyohus » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:44 pm

Wynternight wrote:I'd like the opinions of people who have transitioned in their middle years, mid 40's, that kind of thing.


I started transition at 42. The process has been very slow for me because I also had to lose weight before I could go on HRT. In addition to losing weight, I also needed scalp hair restoration and of course facial hair removal. These three things take a really long time. Facial hair removal alone takes an insane amount of time. So long it's downright stupid. So you need to get started on that as soon as you possibly can.

I am 47 now, I lost the weight I was required to lose (and then some), I have restored enough scalp hair to have a feminine head of hair, I have been on cross-sex HRT for three years and I am a little beyond halfway done with facial hair removal. I started living full time in the female role in January after I lost my job, even though I still have some facial hair left. I also regret not starting sooner than I did, but realistically it was not financially possible for me to start sooner than I did. Now that I am unemployed it may not be financially possible for me to finish, but I need to try. Everything I have done to this point has improved my quality of life dramatically. Even if I never get to finish, I will die happier than I would have if I had never tried.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby MirandaP » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:40 pm

I started transition at 46, I'm now 49. I lost my wife, my parents, my house, basically everything except for my military retirement. I can think clearly now, have finished nursing school, and have been full time for one year. I'm not suicidal anymore (some intermittant ideation but not planning anymore). I live my day to day life as a woman and it makes me at least have that big issue out of the way. It hasn't solved every problem in my life, but it has allowed me the freedom of unempeded thought (for the most part) to work on the other things. 99.9% of the people I meet on a day to day basis have no idea I ever was different than I am today, unless I just happen to be in the most accepting place in the world. Even the drunks on the street at night treat me sweetly. Anyway, as hard as all of this has been, I have no regrets besides waiting so long, and knowing what I do now, I wouldn't change anything other than doing it earlier if I could go back in time.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby andrea1959 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:01 pm

I am in my early fifties and feel it's a positive step forward.

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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby LVTrish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:32 pm

didn't lose much, but pre-emptively removed myself from all known spaces, so they had no chance to ditch me. Supportive Family tho.

Rest is similar to Miranda. Went back to school, changed careers and now work as a Lab Tech for Quest. Life is better than ever. Except it rains more than the damn flume ride at disneyland here.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:51 pm

corvus.corax wrote:I qualify as a middle-aged transitioner.
That feeling you describe? The "wasted life" business?
Totally.
Now lose it. Immediately. Or you'll waste more just in the wallowing.

My own quality of life is far better. I'm not insane anymore.





PS: Oh, and start electrolysis earlier rather than later. Like, now.


Wait, what?

*anymore*?

;) :wink:
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:57 pm

I started at 41.
Faical hair removal is priority.
Start HRT as soon as practical.
I understand that sense of wasting a life, but I'll point out that thinking that isn't accurate, You lived a life, and while it wasn't great, if you take the best parts out from it those are what can carry you forward.
The worst part, for me, was that I started to doubt my skills, the things I knew and had used through those "wasted" years, and that was not a good thing. Turns out I didn't -- in the end, everything was just practice for what I would need to know to get through this outside the bullshit stuff of hormones and surgeries and such.
(ok, yeah, they aren't bullshit, but all the medical stuff is about 10% of the whole deal with transition, and they get 90% of the focus, which isn't right).
My quality of life since I transitioned in about ten times better than it was before. I don't have money, but money is not the measure of a quality of life for me -- it is merely a means to an end.
I gave up my children and my spouse, but I gained every thing I lost back about ten fold. I have a great relationship, a headache of a complication, and I get to do what I love without all the extra crap that I wasn't usually aware I was doing in addition.
Was well worth the heartache, but make no mistake: there was heartache, and some of that stuff doesn't heal so much as it just slowly fades into the back.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby BecomingSusan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:13 pm

I started at 58. I'll be 61 in three weeks. I've been on hormones for almost two years. I had FFS November 2011 and SRS April 2012. I've been full-time since September 2011.

I also agree about the facial hair removal. Start that now! It's horrible to be full-time and still have hair growing out of my face.

I suggest you start HRT now, too, if you can. You can start at a low dose and work your way up over a long period of time. I think it's safer to do it that way. Age is one of the risk factors of HRT. Giving your body a chance to adjust slowly helps, I think.

I had my share of heart aches and regrets. I don't know if my life is better now. It is most certainly different. I'm very grateful that I have been able to have the gender-change experience. I wanted to live the remainder of my life as a woman, and, for good or bad, I am.

I have the major surgeries out of the way, but still much of the rather harder task of fully adjusting to life as a woman is still ahead of me. I'm thinking another year. (And I still have quite a lot of facial hair to go!)
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby nexyjo » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:42 am

yeah, what they said.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby BoxedIn » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:44 am

I started at 43. My life as "Bill" set me up in a way to transition. As others have noted, you may lose much, but gain much in return. There's a clarity and happiness to my life and I no longer feel as if I'm a spectator.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Alchemagician » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:23 pm

I'm 45 and just starting (FTM). Yeah, I can completely feel your pain about "wasted years", but I do believe that things happened this way for a reason. I'm far more confident of my ability to deal with just about anything life throws at me than I would have been even ten years ago. Taking the first steps on my journey towards manhood- first counselor appt is next week. I'm excited and nervous and scared and happy all at once.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby UberMicro » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:44 am

LVTrish wrote:Except it rains more than the damn flume ride at disneyland here.


Luxury... 377 days a year of it over here, and not just 377 days of barely noticeable drizzle. It's easily provable too: Just put "Rainy city" into Google, and Spring Hill is nowhere to be seen. That said, Some little miscreant's been Google-bombing Seattle into 4th place. We however have a dubious 1st place, and a definite 3rd place. Who needs proof... :mrgreen:
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby LVTrish » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:15 am

UberMicro wrote:
LVTrish wrote:Except it rains more than the damn flume ride at disneyland here.


Luxury... 377 days a year of it over here, and not just 377 days of barely noticeable drizzle. It's easily provable too: Just put "Rainy city" into Google, and Spring Hill is nowhere to be seen. That said, Some little miscreant's been Google-bombing Seattle into 4th place. We however have a dubious 1st place, and a definite 3rd place. Who needs proof... :mrgreen:



To be honest, Spring Hill is no where to be seen, anywhere. You could stand in it and not see it. Imagine assfuck Idado, only we never had a factory. Avg age is somewhere north of 70, nominal hair color is blue and popular political opnions sway from hard core McCarthyism to the liberal ones that just want all the "non-whites" to go away. (There is a KKK center.. base...pen..crib.. whatever like 10 miles up the road)

Actually, the annual rainfall here is only about 53 inches and an avg temp of 71, but compared to my beloved homeland, thats positively monsoony.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:26 pm

Don't say the phrase "middle age" where I can hear it. I'm an adult. Barely. An adult with reversible creases in places that should be smooth. An adult whose natural hair color now includes an admixture of a color I don't want. An adult who's had two careers after college so far. An adult who under different circumstances could've had children who'd had their own children by now. An adult who remembers where she was when Reagan was shot. An adult who grew up with a black & white TV, knew the name of our usual milkman, and was brought up being taught that what we now call trans fat was good for you. An adult whose house was once heated by oil, because it was economical. But don't use that phrase where I can hear it.

I could make a joke here about not being able to hear without you being much closer to me now, but I recently took an online hearing test at a mosquito ringtones download site. I do have hearing damage, from specific incidents that had nothing to do with age but with dB and exposure time, and found the less damaged ear can hear frequencies of someone ten or more years younger, so I can't really make the joke.

My most frequent and upsetting thought about transition in...that time period...is the regret over wasting so much time, so much of my life. Now, yes, I agree that the time wasn't literally wasted. I made friends, I went to school, I had jobs, some of which I even liked. I could've been more unhealthy. I did lots of things that I enjoyed. So of course I mean wasting time during that part of my life by not being me, by living a façade. The biggest regret is that I didn't have to. As many here know already, I transitioned as a teenager, starting hormones and electrolysis in high school. I spent years living full-time as a woman. For two or three really stupid reasons, some of which do make sense, sadly, from what I knew at the time, and a certain degree of cowardice, I took the easy way out and transitioned back. And in an ironic twist, at first I had trouble passing again as a guy--with completely hidden boobs, some new facial hair starting to come in, a short male hairstyle, men's clothes, consciously trying to act masculine (and obviously with no makeup), having the same massive V-shaped build I have now, I was still taken as a woman by strangers.

I let my beard come in after I'd already eradicated what little I'd had before. I let a full, thick head of hair go bare. I avoided romantic relationships because I couldn't be me with someone. Another regret, one which held me back from transitioning again, was that I got religion. I wasted countless hours talking to myself thinking Someone Else was listening, singing nonsensical songs about mythical beings, and studying an ancient text of legends, fables, and made-up history as though it really happened. And let its pre-modern, pre-scientific worldview tell me I shouldn't be trans, I shouldn't be gay, so be a man.

So now, here I am, in...this time period...an atheist, free to transition. It didn't take long after jettisoning my fairy tales to start the process again, but I'm doing so with the need for thousands of dollars in hair removal, no hope of ever living my life without wearing some kind of hairpiece, of spending tens of thousands undoing the cumulative damage to my face of testosterone and time, and at a much higher risk age for HRT, with a ton of searchable personal history in the unwanted identity. Ugh.

I've taken the two steps that needed to be addressed first, facial hair and hormones. I've had a full course of laser, and as soon as my finances recover sufficiently from a downturn, I'll kill the rest with needles. I started HRT in stages around the beginning of the year. Finasteride first, then estrogen, more recently, spiro. The next steps come with a long delay caused only by the time needed to save up the money, FFS and maybe hair transplants, both delayed further by dental work that can't possibly wait. After they're done I get my name changed back and retransition. And a year later, or whenever I've come up with the money, whichever is later, SRS. Last priority, but still planned and expected, silicone implants for curves.

I expect to lose all the friends I've gained in the decades of living the lie (but I might lose them when they find out I'm an atheist and save me the trouble of coming out to them or avoiding the issue), and most of my family. I plan to relocate and get a new job, even career. And I'll go stealth to whatever degree I can.

My second RLE should take place when I'm old enough for early retirement, were that remotely feasible.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Danette Celeste » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:06 pm

LVTrish wrote:
UberMicro wrote:
LVTrish wrote:Except it rains more than the damn flume ride at disneyland here.


Luxury... 377 days a year of it over here, and not just 377 days of barely noticeable drizzle. It's easily provable too: Just put "Rainy city" into Google, and Spring Hill is nowhere to be seen. That said, Some little miscreant's been Google-bombing Seattle into 4th place. We however have a dubious 1st place, and a definite 3rd place. Who needs proof... :mrgreen:



To be honest, Spring Hill is no where to be seen, anywhere. You could stand in it and not see it. Imagine assfuck Idado, only we never had a factory. Avg age is somewhere north of 70, nominal hair color is blue and popular political opnions sway from hard core McCarthyism to the liberal ones that just want all the "non-whites" to go away. (There is a KKK center.. base...pen..crib.. whatever like 10 miles up the road)

Actually, the annual rainfall here is only about 53 inches and an avg temp of 71, but compared to my beloved homeland, thats positively monsoony.


"Idado"????
"actually, i just woke up one day and decided i didn't want to feel like that anymore, or ever again. so i changed"

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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby nexyjo » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:23 pm

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:...An adult who remembers where she was when Reagan was shot. ..


the hell with that. i remember where i was when kennedy was shot. these damn youngster whippersnappers. get off my lawn!
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Danette Celeste » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:39 pm

nexyjo wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:...An adult who remembers where she was when Reagan was shot. ..


the hell with that. i remember where i was when kennedy was shot. these damn youngster whippersnappers. get off my lawn!


Um, yeah, that, and crawling under your school desk and closing your eyes "real tight" during A-Bomb drills. Like that was going to keep me from becoming a pile of radioactive ash.

Crap, that must mean I'm past middle age....
"actually, i just woke up one day and decided i didn't want to feel like that anymore, or ever again. so i changed"

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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby nexyjo » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:44 pm

yeah, i remember hiding under the desk, as well as walking single file into the school bomb shelter. way to freak out 7 years old kids. no wonder i've spent my life preparing for the zombie apocalypse.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby BecomingSusan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:47 pm

nexyjo wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:...An adult who remembers where she was when Reagan was shot. ..


the hell with that. i remember where i was when kennedy was shot...

Yeah, me too. I was in my sixth grade spelling class when I heard the news. My teacher cried.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:43 pm

Kennedy schmennedy.

What counts is the landing on the moon!
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby BecomingSusan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:10 pm

DYSSONANCE wrote:Kennedy schmennedy.

What counts is the landing on the moon!

Awwww... C'mon Toni. You don't actually believe they actually landed on the moon, do you? You're probably too young to know that it was all make-believe.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Heathen...
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:33 am

I'm old enough to remember Capricorn One.
2011 - came out to myself + began electrolysis
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby BecomingSusan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:20 am

DYSSONANCE wrote:Heathen...

Ouch! That hurt. Wah!
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Different Drum » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:35 pm

[quote="corvus.corax"]That feeling you describe? The "wasted life" business?
Totally.
Now lose it. Immediately. Or you'll waste more just in the wallowing.[/quote]

Corvus is absolutely right. The wasted life thing was eating me alive and fueling my worst depressions. 30 years lost is a bitter pill to swallow. But I was able to pull a lesson from my old life that helped me deal:

Long ago when arcades were king, and I was young and poor, I played a game called Asteroids. I never got an allowance, was rarely allowed to work for pay for others, and so each quarter was very, very precious.
I started this particular Asteroids game and immediately... like within 15 seconds... lost my first ship. That freaked me out, especially when my next ship appeared right in the path of an asteroid; second ship down.

So I figured it's over. This game is screwed and there goes my quarter. On the last ship I just didn't give a damn, flinging my ship around asteroids at a lunatic, brazen pace. I kinda just wanted to get the game over with at that point.

And I did so well I got a bonus ship. And then another. And I went on to set the highest score I'd ever made on that game. Literally 10 times better than I'd ever done before. Almost turned the score over. That poor start turned into the my all-time favorite game from that era. And I'd thought it was all over.

I think it's because I was fearless. I took wild opportunities. Didn't worry about what was, or could be, lost. And that's what I have to do now with the 30 years I've lost. See how wild and crazy and far this last ship can get... while having the best time of my life.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:44 pm

Hey, you got Asteroids?

Nah, but my dad does. Some days he can't even sit on the toilet.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Different Drum » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:14 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:Hey, you got Asteroids?

Nah, but my dad does. Some days he can't even sit on the toilet.


Please. National Lampoon's Vacation.

An excellent movie. :)
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:38 pm

My daddy says I'm the best at it!
2011 - came out to myself + began electrolysis
2012 - started HRT + completed laser hair removal
2013 - name & gender changed + full-time en femme
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby PossiblyAnna » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:47 pm

Huh. I thought all you guys were younger than me. I started at 39; I'm 41 now.

Transitioning in mid-life isn't different than anything else new you start at this age. Why worry about how much time you have left? You'll never do *anything* new if you think that way about it.

And transitioning in mid-life actually has advantages: usually, financial advantages (ok, not always); but on another level, there's some confidence and wisdom you gain with age which makes it easier. I don't think I knew myself well enough when I was 20 to have even undertaken transition.

The older you are, the more you've got it figured out.

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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:27 pm

PossiblyAnna wrote:Huh. I thought all you guys were younger than me. I started at 39; I'm 41 now.

Transitioning in mid-life isn't different than anything else new you start at this age. Why worry about how much time you have left? You'll never do *anything* new if you think that way about it.

And transitioning in mid-life actually has advantages: usually, financial advantages (ok, not always); but on another level, there's some confidence and wisdom you gain with age which makes it easier. I don't think I knew myself well enough when I was 20 to have even undertaken transition.

The older you are, the more you've got it figured out.

-Anna


You are now nearly as old as I was when I started.

Mere months shy.

Sooo, um, yeah.

I know how much time I have. Had many doctors who are supposedly pretty smart in this area tell me.

I knew then.

Still going forward, and although the first five years I had all kinds of stress over how I wasn't meeting my timelines, these days I'm sorta over that shit.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Different Drum » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:53 am

I've was ruled by some fictional timeline. But guess I just overloaded to the point that I'll get there in my own timeline. I'll might not be pretty and 17 years old... but I'll be ME.

I just don't care what anyone thinks about me anymore... I need to be ME. It's all that matters.

BTW: Dyssonance: Love you website. Gave me hope in my darkest hours.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby PossiblyAnna » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:21 pm

Different Drum wrote:I've was ruled by some fictional timeline. But guess I just overloaded to the point that I'll get there in my own timeline. I'll might not be pretty and 17 years old... but I'll be ME.


Yup -- that's pretty much what it's all about.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:15 am

I want to be pretty and 15--but with adult ID.
2011 - came out to myself + began electrolysis
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:54 am

I'd settle for 25 and fairly cute, myself.

And that's mostly just for the clothes.

However, all other things considered, I'd have to be paid ginormous sums of money to go back to being under 30.

I remember how fucked up men were at that age.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:57 am

Not a problem for me. :wink:
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:00 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:Not a problem for me. :wink:


You live in a world without men, then?

Or were you thinking only of who one has sex with? Because I wasn't.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:27 am

I was. :mrgreen:

If men are a problem at that age otherwise, what would that have to do with me at that age that it wouldn't have to being older or younger than their age? (Not being smart-alecky, I honestly don't know.)
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby DYSSONANCE » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:40 am

Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:I was. :mrgreen:

If men are a problem at that age otherwise, what would that have to do with me at that age that it wouldn't have to being older or younger than their age? (Not being smart-alecky, I honestly don't know.)


Generally speaking, men have a cultural shift in expectations for them when they approach 30, for the most part (it starts around 25), and there is pressure to "settle down" from their "wild oats" years.

Which they are culturally encouraged to enter into. It isn't only frat boys, either.

And they are everywhere.

And they really go after pretty young things that are emancipated and look underage.

So do traffickers, come to think of it...

However, I'm also in post-TDOR pissy mood, so don't mind me too much.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Nabela » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:43 am

Correction: Emancipated, not above 4'5"-5'0", and look under-age.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby Amy Farrah Fowler » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:57 am

DYSSONANCE wrote:
Amy Farrah Fowler wrote:I was. :mrgreen:

If men are a problem at that age otherwise, what would that have to do with me at that age that it wouldn't have to being older or younger than their age? (Not being smart-alecky, I honestly don't know.)


Generally speaking, men have a cultural shift in expectations for them when they approach 30, for the most part (it starts around 25), and there is pressure to "settle down" from their "wild oats" years.

Which they are culturally encouraged to enter into. It isn't only frat boys, either.

And they are everywhere.

And they really go after pretty young things that are emancipated and look underage.

So do traffickers, come to think of it...

However, I'm also in post-TDOR pissy mood, so don't mind me too much.


I wondered if it was something like that.

Nabela wrote:Correction: Emancipated, not above 4'5"-5'0", and look under-age.


I don't think height has too much to do with it--many actresses over 18 who play underage teens on TV would probably fit the bill. It sounds like you are describing someone working around the legal difficulties of graftifying a paraphilia while Toni is talking about a general predilection among men under 30 or so.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby eddieVroom » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:36 pm

I came out to my family about four years ago, and began to pursue transtion shortly after I turned 50, about six months ago. I have coronary artery disease, type II diabetes and early first stage COPD. On the other hand, I'm also losing weight, haven't had a cigarette in over three months, and am exercising regularly. I'm getting some resistance from the endocinologist, but will be starting androgen blockers when they arrive in the mail (soon), with estrogen to follow after my cardiologist mitigates a particular risk factor (progesterone may be viable now). I'm told that at my age, not to expect my breast tissue to be particularly responsive to the HRT, so we'll see...

If there's any lesson in this for you other girls, it's that the clock is indeed ticking.
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Re: Transition In Middle Age

Postby eddieVroom » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:42 pm

[quote="BecomingSusan"][quote="DYSSONANCE"]Kennedy schmennedy.

What counts is the landing on the moon![/quote]
Awwww... C'mon Toni. You don't actually believe they actually landed on the moon, do you? You're probably too young to know that it was all make-believe.[/quote]
It's TRUE! and Desert Storm was faked in the Mexican desert! :thumb:
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