Evanesce and Feminol?

RLT, HRT, FFS, and SRS Support

Evanesce and Feminol?

Postby samantha » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:59 am

I already emailed Anida for her opinions on these two herbal products, and before anyone immediately trashes these two products just because they are herbals, I would like to hear some opinions -- on actual usage -- of the products.

The two products can be found at www.myevanesce.com ... please not I am NOT in any way affiliated with that site. I just gave the link so those much smarter than I can look into this and give me a sense of whether I would gain much from the use of the products.

Also if anyone knows "details" about the products, such as the ingredients and their effectiveness, please tell me about it. I have spent some money on the products and they are definitely bringing forth my feelings of feminity, but I am actually concerned about the physical changes they may or may not bring about.

Hugs,

Samanta
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:31 am

they are definitely bringing forth my feelings of feminity



you're not supposed to snort the stuff.



in all seriousness, though, the prevalence of this sort of question makes me wonder if perhaps we ought to have some sticky faqs on this board.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby samantha » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:57 am

I take it you have nothing valuable to contribute?
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:16 am

nope.

but the second half of the comment is sincere, even though the first isn't.

there are a couple of categories of questions which are especially common first - or nearly first - inquiries for newcomers, and i think the snark they engender has at least as much to do with a regular's perception of redundancy, as with a reaction to naivete. i know that a faq is somewhat problematic, since opinion is so varied here... but there are also areas of some consensus, of which even the variations could be adequately represented by a well-considered faq.

the prevailing, though not necessarily univeral, opinion is that herbals are worthless, or nearly so. i think there would be some merit in just posting that upfront.

but sometimes, the framing of a question itself begs a little mirth. phrases like "bringing forth my femininity", particularly in the context of a near-placebo, just have that special something. there is a lot of wishful thinking among trannies, and the idea that popping a few herbs will observably alter your worldview and behavior is a classic example. believe me... any such changes to any significant degree are entirely psychosomatic.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby samantha » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:01 am

Got enough marbles in your mouth, Corvus? You're completely lost in your own nonsense. Who EXACTLY are you calling "trannies"? I would hope that it's not us girls here. Furthermore, how do you know that Evanesce and Feminol are "near-placebos"? You don't. Otherwise, PROVE IT. You can't, and you and I both know that it's just easier for you to pull out your little thesaurus and clump together a whole slew of fancy words that don't amount to a hill of beans. I'll wait patiently for you to support your assertion that Evanesce and Feminol are "near-placebos". I bet there are a whole of girls out there that will be waiting to hear from you on this issue.
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:18 am

ooooh, yummy. i have a new chew toy.

you'll find only a few "girls" here, samantha. most of us are adults, and several of us are transmen.

you've got the rules of evidence backwards, by the way. if you're going to insist that a product is effective, the burden is on you to supply sound justification. and i see no "studies" from you in that line... just aggressive assertion, supporting what is apparently a strongly held personal investment on your part. in the face of which, i place more confidence in the writings of people who actually have examined this question in some depth and discussed it here over the years, and in the anecdotal evidence of the many people who have tried the herbals and, once they got past that initial euphoria of at least feeling like they were doing something, discovered that there were more effective solutions.

but hey. whatever works for you. get that femme on, yo.

oh, and...

tranny tranny tranny.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby Mr Son B » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:24 am

I guess I'll never understand that "Oh no, I don't want hormones but herbals are okay"-mentality. WTF?

No matter how you turn it, in the end it all comes down to one question: do you want to feminize your body or not?

If you want to do so, take hormones. That's the fastest and cheapest method to get the best possible results with the least possible side-effects.

If you don't want to modify your body, take nothing.

If you're not sure whether you want to modify your body or not, take nothing until you made up your mind.

It actually is as easy as that.

If you consider herbals because they are "natural", that's perfect BS.
It's not because something is natural that it necessarely is healthy. There's a lot of very toxic plants and herbs.
User avatar
Mr Son B
Board Sponsor
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:21 am

Postby zoetrope » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:34 am

i love it when people say, 'you use long words! therefore you are stupid!'. it makes me want to cuddle them.

um, samantha, you obviously come here looking for advice. sure, CC eats theasuruses (or is that theasurai?), but i've discovered many charming words by bothering to google the longer ones she uses that i don't understand. she's also pretty much dead on. i think herbals can be useful as a psychological evaluation tool (am i actually comfortble with taking pills with the intent of changing my body), but i don't think they actually *work*.

you'll also find that when you are actually going through 'female puberty' that there are a whole bunch of other things going on that totally transcend 'bringing forth feelings of femininity'. i could be graphic and let you know about some of the physical ones, but i'll just leave you with my memory of really wanting to wear buckets of black eyeliner, great big boots, and go around stomping and snarling at people because they just didn't understand. trust me, it's not pretty.

relax on being called a tranny too. we're all in the same boat here and we kinda don't mind the label used within the 'community'. well, i don't anyway. in fact, i get more annoyed when somebody calls me a girl........
User avatar
zoetrope
Member
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Postby samantha » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:57 pm

corvus corax wrote:ooooh, yummy. i have a new chew toy.

you'll find only a few "girls" here, samantha. most of us are adults, and several of us are transmen.

you've got the rules of evidence backwards, by the way. if you're going to insist that a product is effective, the burden is on you to supply sound justification. and i see no "studies" from you in that line... just aggressive assertion, supporting what is apparently a strongly held personal investment on your part. in the face of which, i place more confidence in the writings of people who actually have examined this question in some depth and discussed it here over the years, and in the anecdotal evidence of the many people who have tried the herbals and, once they got past that initial euphoria of at least feeling like they were doing something, discovered that there were more effective solutions.

but hey. whatever works for you. get that femme on, yo.

oh, and...

tranny tranny tranny.


I've got a chew toy. You can try and spin it any way you want, but if you're going to dismiss an herbal as "near-placebo" then the burden of providing proof to back up the statements is on YOU. You've yet to do that, you retorted to name calling. How mature of you.

Every post that you make reaffirms why many here do not like you. You're childish acting, and therefore your posts are with little merit.

I created a thread asking for opinions (I probably should have asked for "scientific evidence" or somesuch), so again, since you're quick to label the herbals as merely garbage the onus is on you to support your "opinion" on the herbals. If the best you can do is refer to "discussed it here over the years", then your opinion doesn't hold water. Got a link on THIS site (since you are saying "we") where you "discussed" these herbals in depth? Evanesce and Feminol have been around for some time, so if you've discussed herbals in any real depth. you surely would have discussed those two.

"tranny" is slang, and it usually comes out of the mouths of guys. Are you really a guy in disguise here on TGBoards?
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby zoetrope » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:23 pm

you see, the problem is this.

one, you're an asshole samantha. sorry, personal attack i know, but stop being a dumbass to my friends.

two, all the evidence in support of herbal hormones, and a lot of it on that site, comes from the presumption that they are going into a body that is already feminised and and doesn't have any testosterone in it. they are *supplements* for ciswomen, and are not meant to fully feminise transition transwomen. sorry, but knowing full well how much estrogen i've had to take, the nasty druggie kind, in order to get just my blood results balancing. then, well.

three, how much did you pay for these tablets?

four, do you actually want to transition? or do you want to dick about with being ripped off for years?

five, you're still an asshole.
User avatar
zoetrope
Member
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:28 pm

"tranny" is slang, and it usually comes out of the mouths of guys.


oh! oh! i've been gender-baited!

carving out territory at the outset of one's appearance in an established group can also be considered a "masculine" behavior by some normative standards.

or canine, at least. woof woof.

yeah, zoetrope... i call ODA.

edit:

what kills me is the wonderfully self-supporting stupidity - on the one hand "attacking" a particular vocabulary, and at the same time so utterly misunderstanding the basic principles of reason.

i'll try to keep this simple for the slow class:

herbal HRT has never been shown to be effective.
ask for an educated opinion, and that will be the most common response.
since it has never been shown to be effective, demanding that the opinion be supported by evidence that is ineffective is about as good an example of craniorectal inversion as one can come up with.

i have already supplied one very good link, to a page written by someone who, while she was kinda nuts, was exceptionally thorough in her own research on this and related topics. i can also recommend doing simple googling on the topic of herbal HRT, staying away from the tranny sites which tend to be more agenda-bound than most. you will find that the majority of information suggests that herbal HRT is not only comparitively ineffective, but possibly dangerous. just because you were born with a Y chromosome, doesn't change that.

do your own research, rather than pinning your hopes and your ego on a single product. and then follow whatever you think is the best course for you.

and beyond that, go grind your fucking axe somewhere else, toad.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby lisagurl » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:33 pm

Evanesce and Feminol have been around for some time,


That is why no one has used them for transition and been successful, they simply do not work. I am completely transitioned. over the period of 4 years. I have been to doctors in TN, CA and Thailand. I have met over 100 TS in person and not one has transitioned using herbals. All medical evidence of the professional nature share the fact that herbals are a placebo.
lisagurl
Member
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:13 pm

Postby regalgoddess » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Anyone notice how Xeno Estrogens and animal sex organs are such a heated topic.
regalgoddess
Member
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:50 am

Postby Andina » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:30 pm

Son B summed it up explicitly. Thanks Stu.

This is a SUPPORT forum. Our aim is to help. There are no dumb questions. We all have to learn and we all had to start somewhere.

So when a NooB asks a question that is beneath your dignity to respond intelligently, shut the fuck up. If you want to feel important by running others down, go do it elsewhere. Unenlightened questions are still important to the individual or they would not have asked. We are here to help, not criticize the question, the reason for asking it, the way it was asked, the spelling. Our aim is to PROVIDE support, not UNDERMINE it and we should avoid the not uncommon downfall befalling many bulletin boards of becoming a clique of experts who make beginners feel uncomfortable for intruding.

Personally I feel that some of the comments here are counter productive to the intents of this bulletin board and some apologies would be in order.
User avatar
Andina
Board Moderator
 
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:56 am
Location: South Carolina

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:06 pm

actually, mom, i did respond - at some length and mostly substantively. i even tried to point samantha to the link on your site. of course, she is too caught up in her investment to pay attention to anything like that. she expects to have what she already believes, disproved.

i notice, by the way, that your knuckle-rapping ruler was nowhere to be found when regal was chowing down on hiro.

i return to my original comment... i think a faq could be useful.

of course, that would require consistent, proactive effort as well.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby regalgoddess » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:49 pm

Don't even go there, because my offense was not even intentional. I didn't set out to make anyone feel stupid, I just niglected to take Hiro's feelings into account which was my mistake and it escalated from there, something for which I can actually apologize for.
So, No, I didn't tear into anyone about herbals, I tore into someone for shifting some trivial unjustified blame toward me. :roll:
So don't bring me into this.
Oh, and not to mention the word dick was thrown around several times
Last edited by regalgoddess on Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
regalgoddess
Member
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:50 am

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:53 pm

-shrug-

it's a difference between you and me. i'll take responsibility for my snark.

sorry, regal. i didn't really intend to "bring you into it" in any meaningful way. i was just suggesting a certain inconsistent attitude on andina's part.

or perhaps a consistent one which i have, in turn, consistently resisted.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby regalgoddess » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:09 pm

How exactly did I not take responsibility for my comment, notice how I said I neglected to take Hiro's feelings into account, because I was being reckless with what I said. I neglected to put a face and a person behind my initial comment, so yes, I do take full responsibility for what I said, I even apologized in my last post on this thread.
Yes, Andina did voice her opinion on that thread about Hiro being treated unfairly, she just didn't point the finger at me directly.
I know that you're very smart CC, and I know you know everyone here is smart too, I think we're all smart enough to know that this person is probably delusional about their results, and feelings, but there's no need to argue back and forth. If this person wants to take herbals, then let them, and if anyone else is stupid enough to take their advice, I say let them. "SaMantha's" mind is obviously made up, and this person is just looking to see if any other turkeys will yell "try to fly of the bridge".
regalgoddess
Member
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:50 am

Postby corvus corax » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:16 pm

i stand corrected. i just checked the thread again and indeed andina did wave her modwand there as well. it didn't quite rise to the level of "shut the fuck up" but hey... it's the thought that counts.

something i wanted to add:

everyone has their own measurement for assholeness. i'm quite sure that i fall on the far side of quite a few thresholds for some.

one of my own measures, in the context of trans discussions, is how long it takes the other party to pull the gender-baiting shtick. samantha managed it twice, in short order, in two separate threads.

pretty remarkable, actually. from zero to asshole in ten seconds flat.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby samantha » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:01 pm

lisagurl wrote:
Evanesce and Feminol have been around for some time,


That is why no one has used them for transition and been successful, they simply do not work. I am completely transitioned. over the period of 4 years. I have been to doctors in TN, CA and Thailand. I have met over 100 TS in person and not one has transitioned using herbals. All medical evidence of the professional nature share the fact that herbals are a placebo.


I think you could use a Statistics 101 or Logic 101 course. Being "around for some time" OUGHT to imply to you that they DO work. Else, they wouldn't still be around. Usually, products that won't work quickly go away.

Just because no one that YOU know of has transitioned using herbals, does not mean they do not work. My understanding was that herbals don't offer as high the levels of estrogen, but they are also safer than the prescription-based stuff.

I came here for scientific evidence to support/discredit that statement, and up to this point in the thread not one person has been able to step forward and provide anything scientifical. Just continued heresay with out any links to the source (where they read this) and name calling.

The reason that everyone YOU know has transitioned using prescribed-based products is because that is what they were told to do.

And, this -> "All medical evidence of the professional nature share the fact that herbals are a placebo." means nothing. What EVIDENCE are you talking about? Do you have ANY PROOF that what you just said was a "fact"?

I'm waiting. I'm sure I'll be called an asshole a hundred more times in this thread, but if being a smart customer that is DOING HER HOMEWORK is the same as being an asshole, I'll gladly accept that honor :D

Hugs,

Samantha
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby samantha » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:07 pm

The only one I see baiting in this thread is you, Corvus. I came here to ask a question and was trashed by you. I feel so welcome here right now. Where EXACTLY did you post a link to SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that Evanesce and/or Feminol are the garbage you claim to be? I am NOT looking to dispute that they are garbage, nor am I of the opinion that they are some magic pill. I am trying to make an informed decision (and doctors are NOT going to have anything to say about an herbal that they can't push) here on these two products. And, I don't appreciate you accusing me of "gender-baiting". I have NEVER been one to do that. Being offended because someone calls me "tranny" is not what I would qualify as gender-baiting. I would just call that hatred.
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby Laura121 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:18 am

Good God Samantha why are you so uptight. Why should anyone here have to give you scientific evidence, use the crap if you want. It's obvious to the folks here that it is crap, so go use the crap and let us know how it is working.
Laura121
New
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:26 pm

Postby regalgoddess » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:24 am

I don't appreciate you accusing me of "gender-baiting". I have NEVER been one to do that.


"tranny" is slang, and it usually comes out of the mouths of guys.
What do you call that?

My understanding was that herbals don't offer as high the levels of estrogen, but they are also safer than the prescription-based stuff.
Pooh, Pooh, they don't provide any estrogen, period, the molecule that they provide is chemically close to estrogen, that's why it can bind to the receptor site, but........Xeno estrogens,(what they're called) plant estrogens in particular about 1/1000 as strong as normal estradiol.
So if you go to the doctor they won't find any estrogens in your blood stream, aside from the estrogens you're already creating because plant estrogens are not really estrogens.

Here's the link everyone is talking about

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/herbal.htm

No they're not safer than normal estradiol....So please stop repeating yourself.
regalgoddess
Member
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:50 am

Postby theresa54321 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:27 am

"official" hormones were pretty useless for me too.
User avatar
theresa54321
Member
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:00 pm

Postby samantha » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:18 am

regalgoddess wrote:
Here's the link everyone is talking about
http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/herbal.htm


Ah, THAT site. A site that hasn't had ANY information updated in nearly 3 years, and has NO MENTION of either Evanesce and Feminol. Bet you didn't bother to check that fact out, did you?

I am still looking into this, there HAS to be some solid information SOMEWHERE about Evanesce and Feminol. There just has to be. Positive or Negative, I don't care.
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby zoetrope » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:50 am

HRT may act preventively to reduce morbidity and mortality from cardiovascular disease in primary prevention. The development of SERMs adds a new, exciting, and promising therapeutic option to this field, as does the enhanced availability of soy phytoestrogen products. Although clinical trial data are incomplete, epidemiologic studies suggest that HRT raises HDL-C and triglyceride levels and lowers LDL-C levels. In addition, HRT lowers levels of Lp(a). These changes account for up to 50% of the cardiovascular risk reduction observed with HRT. In contrast, SERMs have less uniform effects. Both SERMs and phytoestrogens are less potent than HRT but have greater tissue selectivity. Although further study is needed, current information suggests that SERMs and phytoestrogens have significant potential to reduce CAD risk and may be a viable alternative to HRT for modest lowering of lipid levels. Phytoestrogens may be particularly useful for reducing CAD risk in men because they do not cause the side effects associated with estrogen. Additional clinical trials are necessary to determine whether the favorable lipid effects associated with HRT, SERMs, and phytoestrogens are linked to protection against cardiovascular disease. Nonetheless, physicians should consider the use of HRT, SERMs, and phytoestrogens for lowering lipid levels and reducing cardiovascular risk in women.

read between the lines.

i refer you to my previous comment, where i stated that all the excitement over phytoestrogens was due to their potentially beneficial effects in post-menopausal women and, as i've just found out, breast cancer patients.

secondly, pieces like this on the phoenix projects website,

Drug hormones, such as Premarin manufactured from horse urine (PREgnant MARe uRINe), must go through the liver to get their estrogens to release. And, the excess estrogen released (estrogen beyond what the body can use at the time) must be processed through the liver again, and the kidneys, in order to be eliminated from the body. These organs were not "designed" to process that much estrogen, which is why frequent kidney and liver function testing is required for those on prescription hormones. Injectable prescription hormones must also be processed out, if their levels are in excess of what the body can use.

Using herbs to create additional estrogen, on the other hand, lets the body create what it can use utilizing normal bodily biological conversions.


are classic examples of just slightly misleading enough junk science. to my knowledge, *everything* you eat goes through your liver at some point. the reason why you need to take such high doses is because your liver breaks down lot's of the E in the first pass. i am presuming this will be the same vector for orally taken herbal perparations. if you take too much herbal medicine over long periods of time you are still putting your liver at risk. if you eat too many *potatoes* it can kill you, you know? furthermore, this article, by focussing on premarin, is misleading. to my knowledge estradiol valerate is synthesised from plant material, is bio-identical upon 'biological conversion', and can avoid the first pass through the liver by taking it sublingually or IV.

and, no, i'm not going to apologise andina. the thing i hate most of all, currently, is people pulling the gender card, irrespective of who they are.
User avatar
zoetrope
Member
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Postby corvus corax » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:30 am

edited.

-sigh-

the problem with stupid, lying assholes is that they tend to make me escalate.

woof woof.
User avatar
corvus corax
Member
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:00 am

Postby Microodyke » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:57 am

Samantha, there appear to be no studies on the efficacy or safety of these herbal preparations. Wouldn't you think that the marketers of this product would submit it for scientific-peer review- double blind testing if they believed it to actually work? I'm troubled by the fact that there is no detailing of the herbs in the product, source of said herbs, consistency of said herbs from batch to batch, etc. While the site mentions herbs for menopausal women, it does not discuss the actual studies that proved that black cohosh for menopause is no more effective than placebo, (and much less effective than prescribed hormonal preparations for symptoms of menopause) With no regulation in the United States of herbal products, it is definately a case of "you pay your money, you take your chances." Please though, mention the herbal preparations you are taking to your doctor and/or pharmacist as some can cause some negative reactions with- or potentiation of- medications you may be taking.

And Samantha, if you are taking the herbal route because you believe it to be "all nautral" remember that cyanide is all natural too!
Last edited by Microodyke on Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Microodyke
Member
 
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Alabama

Postby regalgoddess » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:29 am

good information Zoe, sublingual actually does nothing it still goes through the first pass effect, It's only Injectable EV or patches that do not go through the first pass effect.

And Samantha, if you are taking the herbal route because you believe it to be "all nautral" remember that cyanide is all natural too!
Im not mentioning in regards to here, but I dislike when people throw around the term all natural. Everything in the universe is all natural!
regalgoddess
Member
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:50 am

Postby zoetrope » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:18 am

regal,

i have to disagree with you concerning sublingual administration.

firstly, here, and then this:

[url=http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/340?ijkey=3ae91f5a65454885b708f2871ff46ea7278c6d57&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha]Single-dose pharmacokinetics of sublingual versus oral administration of micronized 17 beta-estradiol
TM Price, KL Blauer, M Hansen, F Stanczyk, R Lobo, and GW Bates


OBJECTIVE: To investigate the pharmacokinetic profiles of different doses of micronized 17 beta-estradiol administered by oral or sublingual routes. METHODS: Single doses of micronized 17 beta-estradiol were administered orally (1 mg, 0.5 mg) or sublingually (1 mg, 0.5 mg, 0.25 mg) to six postmenopausal women in a randomized clinical trial. We calculated pharmacokinetic parameters for estradiol (E2) and estrone (E1) of maximum serum concentration, time to maximum serum concentration, terminal half-life, area under the concentration curve, and oral clearance. Serum levels of E1 sulfate also were compared at 4, 12, and 24 hours after dosing. RESULTS: Sublingual administration resulted in rapid absorption with significantly higher E2 levels than did comparable oral dosing. Estrone levels did not vary with route of administration but correlated with the dosage administered. Estrone sulfate levels correlated with the dosage administered and also tended to be higher with sublingual administration. Sublingual administration resulted in a significantly lower E1 to E2 ratio during the 24 hours than did oral administration. CONCLUSION: Sublingual administration of micronized 17 beta-estradiol results in a rapid, burst-like absorption into the systemic circulation, yielding high E2 levels that fall rapidly over the first 6 hours. [/url]
User avatar
zoetrope
Member
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Postby lisagurl » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:29 am

It is amazing what marketing can do. Then again propaganda and book burning are pretty effective.
lisagurl
Member
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:13 pm

Postby mischelle » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:02 pm

Um yes I am new on this board, and I have only been on HRT for 6 months. I am not sure if discussing actual doses is frowned upon here so I wont say what I take or how much. Just let me say it is legal, it is prescribed, it is powerful and it works. I would never trust herbals.
User avatar
mischelle
Regular
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:51 pm

Postby Andrea » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:19 pm

well I on the other hand am not so new to this board, but I am new to the HRT. I was very tempted to start on these herbal thingamagigs for a long time after seeing how long it was taking to get the ball rolling here, but all I can say is I am glad I waited and fought my way through. I'm on a relativily low dose myself of just one of Equin and one of Androur a day, but that's because of many other things I have to combine them with, like high natural estradiol and low natural testosterone levels to start with, and also the hypertension.

It's also legal, prescribed, and was well worth the wait.


Andrea
Image
Months left for legal name and sex change: delays with civil registry //cut //cry //die
"OK!!! Who the hell put this puppydog's tail in my sugar and spice broth!?!?"
User avatar
Andrea
Member
 
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:28 am
Location: Town of Giran, Aden

Postby lisagurl » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:45 pm

lisagurl
Member
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:13 pm

Postby samantha » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:08 am

mischelle wrote:Um yes I am new on this board, and I have only been on HRT for 6 months. I am not sure if discussing actual doses is frowned upon here so I wont say what I take or how much. Just let me say it is legal, it is prescribed, it is powerful and it works. I would never trust herbals.


I wasted two weeks of taking herbals, and don't think they did anything. I took 84 Evanesce (14 days x 6 pills as recommended on their site, WHAT A JOKE) and 56 Feminol (14 days x 4 pills) capsules. All I got out of it was some nipples that are seemingly more sensitive. That may just be a placebo affect. Oh, and I "felt happy", sort of high each day. For all I know, there could have been pot in those capsules, lol. But, hey, if you go on their forums (My Evanesce) and question the effects of the pills, they will try and spin and say there are far more important things to being a woman than "looks". Again, WHAT A JOKE. There were people here who tried to warn me, and being the tree hugger that I am, I was hard headed. Thank God I just got a therapist and will be seeing her in two to three weeks.
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby mischelle » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:41 am

I am glad to hear that you are seeking professional help Samantha, I wish you only the best. I am almost at 7 months now and I couldn't be happier. I am sure it's mostly mental but I swear I feel changes in my body as the are happening sometimes. Today several times I felt a change once in my face and twice in my tummy. I know that sounds dumb but I felt like I could feel my body changing. Like I said I am sure it is 99.9 % mental.
User avatar
mischelle
Regular
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:51 pm

Postby zoetrope » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:37 am

samantha, one word of caution for the future........

i'm not going back on my opinion concerning herbals, but even you do take the actual HRT you might not notice anything over a time span of two weeks anyway. it can take months. it really is seismic though, because even though it moves slowly, when you notice changes it seems earth moving.

and, yeah, there is a lot of mental stuff that goes on.

all the best for when you see your therapist.
User avatar
zoetrope
Member
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Postby samantha » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:07 pm

Thanks for the kind words. I guess I was more worried that if I went to see a therapist one of two things might happen:

she would say that I am transsexual - how could I explain this to my wife with honesty and at the same time assure her that I would not leave her?

she would say that I am not a candidate for HRT, though the fact that I am taking the herbals (I bought them, will use them until they run out and *maybe* buy them again if I don't get the HRT letter) and fear her telling me something like this ought to be a clue that I am a candidate for HRT.

Aside from seeing the therapist for the obvious reason, there are a lot of haunting issues I carry around in my mental backpack every day that I need to resolve. Losing mother at a young age to a horrific accident, abused by my adoptive father and suffering in many ways related to my hearing impairment.

Again, thank you all and I really can't wait until what happens down the road in this journey. I mean I'm not exactly a spring chicken, but I don't have to do all this today, either.

Hugs,

Samantha
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby lisagurl » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:47 pm

Samantha

This is a small world and if you love your wife let her know how you feel. I read your realization about herbals on Susan's sometimes beliefs steer us in the wrong direction.

What are facts? Again and again and again—what are facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell”, avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”—what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
lisagurl
Member
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:13 pm

Postby Sam » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:53 pm

Sammy... you need to tell your significant other sooner or later. I myself picked 'sooner' cos I started spiraling down the hole and things were getting harder and harder to deal with. You might find out her to be more accepting than you think.

When I came out to my wife... she had 3 questions (in this ordervwith a tad of my explaining in between them):
"Emmm... how are we gonna have sex?"
"Why didn't you tell me sooner?"
"So what's your name now?"

But that's just me...

Word of advice (not sure if it's a good one though). Get out to her before you go see a therapist. She might need to see one herself.
Be yourself (I am the Stinkfist!)
Sam
Member
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:32 pm

Postby samantha » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:18 pm

My wife does know. She has been on the forefront of all this. Whenever I've discovered something about myself (yes, I knew I had genitals before I met her, lol) I have talked to her about it.

You see, she and I have never had much of a sex life. She grew up in a very religious environment, and was basically taught that any kind of sex other than strictly lovemaking with the end result being a baby, was a sin. I have "spoiled" her somewhat, and she has learned how to do oral sex and has become just a little dominating. She likes to wrestle. Oral sex she's really not good at, despite reading the "Tickle His Pickle" book :D Really, I don't think the issue of how we would have sex is as important for us as it is for other couples. If anything, she would feel more sadness over feeling that we couldn't have sex, than she would ever feel that we weren't getting enough.

I will be seeing a therapist in about a month. I had an appointment for this week, but my wife's sister is coming down and that part of her family does not like me. They are psychos to be sure. Basically, when she and I met I "stole their babysitter" if that makes any sense. They were constantly using my wife as their babysitter, and she went through it because she was lonely. I just don't trust them around my child, especially not after hearing that their youngest (about 5 years old) made a comment when she was 3 years old that I was some sort of monster and that she hated my guts. Believe me, my sister-in-law is a big-time church go'er and is involved in community activities, but behind closed doors she might as well be the devil's secretary.

The other day my wife, son and I went to the wig shop for me to be fitted. We found that red hair looks the best on me, and I have never really liked red hair on anyone else. Makes me wonder now if something subconsciously had been going on all those years. My real mother's hair was a reddish-brown color, and I think I look a lot like she did. For now I can't do anything with crossdressing because I don't have the wig or any girly clothes.

For years and years and years I have wanted to crossdress but never did because my face and body did not match. For such the longest time I wasn't even aware there was such a thing as hormones by prescription. As much as I love my wife and son -- I would never want to lose them -- if I had "known" about all these things ..... my transgenderism, hormones, etc. I would no doubt be living full-time as a woman by now.

Yes I want to be a woman, I'm not going to deny that. Not even to my wife. However I feel I am one of those types that would still be a lot happier if I were allowed to at least look a lot more feminine so that I could dress and look the part as I feel necessary. While that's not the same as living full-time as a woman, it seems like a reasonable compromise for all involved. On the flip side of the coin, I am very saddened because I can't allocate a big chunk of my income toward transitioning (FFS, electrolysis, etc.) and that VERY LIKELY as long as I am married I will never really be a "woman" on the outside.

The other day my wife said that she was sorry she was holding me back, and I told her that she's not holding me back. I do enjoy being my son's father, even though I hate the way I look. I enjoy being her husband and doing things as a husband, but resent that I can not really be me.

She knows where I want to go with this. The other day (I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, lol) she told me that she agreed that she knows I have not been hiding this for all these years (we've known each other 8 years, been married for 6 years), but that in the past three to six months I had come to accept myself as transgendered. Though I really want to go see my therapist and get the HRT ball rolling, I'm also afraid that I will hear that I am transsexual, and then what???? I would not lie to my wife. My son is only 22 months old and I would not want to lose him. My wife told me that if I became a woman she would not leave me but that she would no longer be attracted to me. I totally understand that she would not be attracted to me. I do believe that much. I'm just not convinced that she wouldn't leave me. How would she explain all this to her family? How would I explain it to mine? My family has always thought I was just a really strange kid, this would just be more ammo for them. Above all, how would I explain this to my son? Do I really want to give up all those "daddy years"? You know, go swimming with him, play ball with him. How would HE deal with all this? Kids would surely make fun of him, and I am very protective of my family. I'd be tempted to slug any kid that made fun of him, but obviously this isn't Monopoly where we can just hand over our Get Out of Jail Free Card.

It seems that every day I look at a beautiful woman and wonder "why can't I look like that". Everyday I feel free on the inside, trapped on the outside. As I've always been self-conscious, it's hard for me to just BE feminine, since I think everyone is watching me. Even worse, I don't LOOK feminine, so you can imagine my dilemma.

I don't even remember how I started out this post, so it's probably time for me to shut up and let someone else get it back on track, LOL.

Hugs,

Samantha
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby billiemac » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:30 pm

Hi Samantha,

I wouldn’t worry about what label the therapist uses. It won’t change who you are and it won’t compel you to a specific path. It’s great that you and your wife can talk about this. As long the two of you can continue to communicate openly, you will find the right path for you and your family.

Take Care,
Billie
User avatar
billiemac
Member
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Postby fleurblack » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:56 am

samantha wrote:I take it you have nothing valuable to contribute?


Hi Samantha,

I'm surprised I'm not banned from this forum but anyway here you are.

Herbals can definitely help with feminising - IF - if your natural estro levels only need a slighty nudge to get them started.

To qualify: I started with herbals while still working in male mode and within a few weeks I had definite breast growth to the extent that I became worried about the REAL men seeing them and becoming more direct in their comments of my apparent femininity. After three months I had to leave due to harassment as the breasts were quite visible and now fully transitioned I work in an office as a female.

Curiously the office managers daughter is very definitely a REAL girl but she has never developed any boobs even though she is quite plump. (I never even realised that a REAL girl couldn't grow boobs except the really skinny/anorexic ones perhaps). She started wearing bras cos all the other girls did and the plumpness gave her a sort-of bust but she had to stuff the bras with all sorts of padding. And her mother never noticed...what sort of a mother was that? Once I had shown her and her mother my boobs she has decided to see about getting medical help to try make them grow before going the implants route.

Don't pay silly money for herbal preparations cos if you surf around you will find basic inexpensive herbals with estro properties at your local health food store whatever the trannies on TG say.
fleurblack
Member
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:06 pm

Postby samantha » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:35 pm

Hi Samantha,

I'm surprised I'm not banned from this forum but anyway here you are.

Herbals can definitely help with feminising - IF - if your natural estro levels only need a slighty nudge to get them started.

To qualify: I started with herbals while still working in male mode and within a few weeks I had definite breast growth to the extent that I became worried about the REAL men seeing them and becoming more direct in their comments of my apparent femininity. After three months I had to leave due to harassment as the breasts were quite visible and now fully transitioned I work in an office as a female.

Curiously the office managers daughter is very definitely a REAL girl but she has never developed any boobs even though she is quite plump. (I never even realised that a REAL girl couldn't grow boobs except the really skinny/anorexic ones perhaps). She started wearing bras cos all the other girls did and the plumpness gave her a sort-of bust but she had to stuff the bras with all sorts of padding. And her mother never noticed...what sort of a mother was that? Once I had shown her and her mother my boobs she has decided to see about getting medical help to try make them grow before going the implants route.

Don't pay silly money for herbal preparations cos if you surf around you will find basic inexpensive herbals with estro properties at your local health food store whatever the trannies on TG say.[/quote]

Out of curiousity, what herbals were you taking to achieve those results? I just saw my therapist for the first time yesterday (will post about that in another thread), and I should have my HRT referral letter in the next meeting with the therapist. I am finishing up the supply of E & F that I had bought, but will stop buying them once I am on SAFE prescription hormones.

Samantha
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby fleurblack » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:03 am

Hi Samantha.

If I said various friends have had good results with any particular herbal I would get all the usual crap so I won't...just surf the trans websites...but I hope your 'safe hormones' really are.

Are you going to come off all herbal hormones for about three months before having an endo test before starting the hormones - just to see what your natural levels are?
fleurblack
Member
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:06 pm

Postby samantha » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:02 pm

Microodyke wrote:Samantha, there appear to be no studies on the efficacy or safety of these herbal preparations. Wouldn't you think that the marketers of this product would submit it for scientific-peer review- double blind testing if they believed it to actually work? I'm troubled by the fact that there is no detailing of the herbs in the product, source of said herbs, consistency of said herbs from batch to batch, etc. While the site mentions herbs for menopausal women, it does not discuss the actual studies that proved that black cohosh for menopause is no more effective than placebo, (and much less effective than prescribed hormonal preparations for symptoms of menopause) With no regulation in the United States of herbal products, it is definately a case of "you pay your money, you take your chances." Please though, mention the herbal preparations you are taking to your doctor and/or pharmacist as some can cause some negative reactions with- or potentiation of- medications you may be taking.

And Samantha, if you are taking the herbal route because you believe it to be "all nautral" remember that cyanide is all natural too!


I will definitely be mentioning the amounts of Evanesce and Feminol I have been taking, to my doctor. I was able to view the "myevansce.com" website the other day and noticed that a poster over there pretended to be a new poster there, with a hidden agenda: to let everyone that they had seen a post (mine) that bashed herbals and their website, on another site. So those idiots wouldn't be coming over here to make up stuff and try to justify why I was banned over there, I removed the post. I will be putting the post back up as I feel everyone needs to know just what that other site is really all about. I just think it's pathetic that someone should be expected to take SIX Evanesce capsules and FOUR Feminol capsules per day, in order to even come close to producing the desired effect.

Hugs,

AeronTG

P.S. (I changed my screen name to reflect the name (minus "TG") I want if I ever fully transition)
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby samantha » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:06 pm

fleurblack wrote:Hi Samantha.

If I said various friends have had good results with any particular herbal I would get all the usual crap so I won't...just surf the trans websites...but I hope your 'safe hormones' really are.

Are you going to come off all herbal hormones for about three months before having an endo test before starting the hormones - just to see what your natural levels are?


No. I plan on getting my HRT letter from my second therapist session (she told me I would be getting it in the upcoming session), then submitting it to the Endo (if she doesn't)....and going on HRT as soon as he gives the OK. I am not going to wait if I don't have to.
samantha
New
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:53 am

Postby Lydia » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:23 pm

I read most of the posts in this thread. I am sorry that samantha has had such a rough time of it. I realize that I am new here, but on a personal note, I do not trust herbal hormones either. Personally, I don't think that self medication is a good idea in the first place. I realize that doctor's visits will cost money, but so does almost every other aspect of the process, and it may seem like blind trust, but I do take most licensed medical doctors on their words about medical prescription. I understand the frustration of having to wait, and the way that everything may seem a long way off, but I believe that wasting money on untested products will only make the process take longer.
User avatar
Lydia
Member
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:44 am
Location: Long Beach, CA

Postby theresa54321 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:55 am

instead of blindly trusting doctors, how about putting some faith into your personal research skills? i mean its going to take less than 30 minutes to google down the jist of things, including likely side effects and things to watch out for. which you need to watch out for anyway, even if your falliable doctor forgets to warn you about them...
User avatar
theresa54321
Member
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:00 pm

Postby Lydia » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:04 am

I have looked up the different hormones and what they do, and I've read that in some detail. I realize what I said came out stupid, but I don't think editing will do a lick of good now. I duly apologize for the message that I probably sent, "doctors are smarter than regular people." I don't know if I can be redeemed in any way, but I don't really think that doctors are smarter than any of the rest of us. I actually believe them mainly because they have the technology and training to do blood and tissue samples, and can tell you things about yourself that you generally couldn't know on your own. Also, I personally believe that self diagnosis and prescription wouldn't work out well, since I recognize biases in my thinking. Yes, other people have biases too, but trying to find a relatively objective source for diagnosis/prescription matters seems safer than the do it yourself approach. Again, I don't think I'm superior to anyone here. I have bought unhelpful things before too, and recognized that I could have spent the money better. I do support doing research by yourself, definitely. I just don't think that I would ever self medicate.
User avatar
Lydia
Member
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:44 am
Location: Long Beach, CA

Next

Return to Transition

coiae

Consonance of Identity and Expression


© 2000 - 2012 The Ultimate Paradigm