Hormones an option for androgynes?

[Jora]

Hi, I've posted here about a year ago, some might remember me.

(If I use non-corect language, please excuse me. It's not like we were raised knowing about all this stuff, as you all know.)

I'm an androgynous person with a body, that is by my understanding regular male. I'm rather on the skinny side and plain too lazy to do sports, but I'am generally healthy and turn 25 next month.

To make a very long, complex, and partly frustrating story short, I feel the need to make my outwardly appearance look more androgynous.
Problem is, that I don't look androgynous at all.
I'm clearly not a prime example of masculinity, but I find it rather difficult to get an androgynous look done.

I've heard a lot of stuff about hormes flying around without any real context, and have allways been rather reluctant to go into that. Hormones are no fashion accessory after all.

I've never done any hormone tests or such things, but I have rather strong hair growths practically since birth, so I'd make the completely uninformed assumption that I've possibly a testosterone level, that is rather on the higher side of the spectrum. I tried to do some internet research, but it all wasn't really clear and the one half contradicted the other half and it really wasn't any help.

But you people here seem to know your stuff.
Would a low level hormone treatment actually be of any help?
I don't want to develop a female physiology. Just to look a bit more of a feminine guy than now.
I've read some stuff that lower testosterone levels would do that and that estrogene is practically anti-testosterone, but then other things I read make it rather doubtful that things would work that way.

I've not actually planned to use hormones as an option, but I just like to know if it is something that I should get more information on, or if it's not an option to begin with.

[Sam]

Knowing a few androgyne people around, that are taking both hormones and AA's... yes, you should go dig through that option. Basically... low dosages will yield subtle to moderate results, higher dosages (but not too high) will result in stroger feminization.

Of course it all depends what part of the spectre you lean towards (male and female being the oposite poles). Not only a few people identify as androgyne and still go through srs.

I don't exactly know how things work in germany but... you'd probably still need to go into "therapy" if you want to go with hormones. Ususally it's after the OK from the therapist that you get to talk to an endocrinologist (the hormone doctor) that will take care of your HRT regime. Also please note that you can stop with the HRT at any given time if you suspect it's going too far (some effects won't reverse tho, so do pay attention).

Love,
Sam

[SentientTgurl2]

Also please note that you can stop with the HRT at any given time if you suspect it's going too far (some effects won't reverse tho, so do pay attention).

That's up in the air, anyone can do anything anytime they want to, it does not mean you won't have ill effects, just like taking steriods of a long period of time, your body won't produce hormones naturally for a while if at all ever again. I believe HRT should only be reserved for people who plan to transition into female. Estrogens and Anti Androgens are meant to do 1 thing which is feminize and stop the actions of male hormones.

[Sandkat]

I would imagine that HRT would help you achieve a more a androgynous look. I'm not sure what your final intentions are, but if you weren't planning on transitioning then I don't know if a doctor would prescribe them.

[mercy]

I would imagine that HRT would help you achieve a more a androgynous look. I'm not sure what your final intentions are, but if you weren't planning on transitioning then I don't know if a doctor would prescribe them.

My understanding is, if you start with a therapist and get them to refer you to a doctor with a recommendation for HRT, then the doctor's decision process is a lot simpler.

This, combined with (what I have observed to be) an increasing awareness amongst gender therapists that gender dysphoria manifests in different gender identities and that hormone therapy can help to reduce a person's discomfort, means that you may well find an understanding care provider who will help you start HRT without you claiming to have a completely female identity. Since, as I understand it, transGENDER people are also generally considered candidates for HRT.

YMMV, of course, depending on who you see and what your situation is, but I'm sure I've heard of non-transitioning trans people - particularly elderly trans people who think it's "too late" for them to transition, being prescribed hormones for their emotional comfort etc.

(WARNING: pure speculation below )

In terms of actually achieving a more androgynous appearance, that probably depends on your bone structure and other physical characteristics, more than anything else.

As I understand it, androgyny is about a lack of secondary sex characteristics of either sex, but a balance of masculine and feminine features would help in terms of how your face is interpreted.

If you take female hormones for a while, you will start to feminize. This might take you to a point of androgyny, or it might take you past that into a more female appearance. If you reach a point you're comfortable with, you'll still have a hard time maintaining that state, since if you stay on hormones you might feminize more, and if you stop, you'll probably lose the effects over time, and I doubt any reputable doctor will help you maintain a zero T/zero E level for any length of time due to the health risks of having no sex hormones.

How would you feel if you started to grow breasts? They're pretty clearly a female secondary sex characteristic, whereas you're not looking to become female.

Facial hair is one of the biggest male secondary sex characteristics and that won't be helped by HRT.

Plus of course, you're risking sterility, which may or may not bother you, and can be obviated by storing "genetic materials"..

If I personally wanted to make myself androgynous I'd start with hair removal and then I'd probably look to plastic surgery to permanently remove the most masculine cues from my face. I'd also get my testosterone levels checked and possibly look at reducing it, but keeping it within the "normal" male range so as to try to avoid future health problems.

S

[AshleyAshes]

HRT isn't for transsexuals; On paper. If you open the PDR and look at what the manufacturer lists for antiandrogens and estrogens, none of them list the drugs for use in transsexual treatment. Any use of HRT for transsexuals is done purely off lable. So any transsexual who tells you that HRT is only for transsexuals is full of it.

Of course, lot's of drugs have lots of off lable uses.

I'm a very feminine gay male and I take Androcur off lable to prevent male pattern baldness, but I rather enjoy the other effects it has as an antiandrogen too.

Antiandrogens can soften skin, reduce body hair (I used to have a treasure trail once, I'm sure of it...) and some variations in body fat and metabolism. Effects would naturally vary person to person however. One thing to note however is that HRT or just androgen blocking can't signifigantly rework a person into looking like something different. If you're over the age of 18, all the bone growth zones of your body have sealed and your basic 'shape' including that of your face won't change much with HRT. There would be fat tissue distrobution changes and softening but it's not like you wouldn't recognise yourself, not by far.

The right hair cut and outfit could have a more androgenizing effect then HRT. Hair and clothes allow you to lie. Reframe your face with the hair. Clothing can hide or accent certian traits that you'd rather embelish or obscure a lot more easily. This is probably the source of the most improvement of transsexuals as they progress along HRT. They HRT doesn't rapidly change them, they just learn how to not look and dress like crap.

[Sam]

That's up in the air, anyone can do anything anytime they want to, it does not mean you won't have ill effects, just like taking steriods of a long period of time, your body won't produce hormones naturally for a while if at all ever again. I believe HRT should only be reserved for people who plan to transition into female. Estrogens and Anti Androgens are meant to do 1 thing which is feminize and stop the actions of male hormones.

Sure... 5, 10... and beyond years on HRT would prove "difficult" to just stop. But we're talking androgenous here. An androgyne person (or, well, anyone else for that matter) would discover quite soon enough if that path is the right one. Let's say, oh... I dunno... less than a year (and even this is pretty long, I'd go by few months). And that is quite long enough before you can even dream of your body stopping to produce hormones naturally.

Now as to beliefs on who should or shouldn't be allowed to use HRT are, luckily, not set in stone. I know for a fact that in UK, androgyne people are allowed to be given the HRT and are also monitored closely to get the desired results by adjusting the regime. They call it a "nullus".

The final part of this... You are almost spot on with your claim on what HRT is used for. Almost. They are used for other, non TG stuff. But that doesn't concern us so we can just ommit it? Anyway, Jora posted their body is "regular male" and feels the need to "make my outwardly appearance look more androgynous". If that doesn't mean feminizing then I don't know what does. Or, are you implying HRT should only be given to those who want to be girls/boys (or correct the natures mistakes and all that...)? Cos, you know, we don't really like to exclude everyone that stands in the middle of the 2 poles.

(maybe this should've gone to the taboo thread?)

Love,
Sam

P.S. just read this and didn't feel like editing it into the above.

they just learn how to not look and dress like crap.

Well.. boohoo... I don't look and dress like crap! Of course, wifey has a little something to do with that but... I'd take offense in it, if I didn't take it as a side joke

[xrk9854]

HRT isn't for transsexuals; On paper. If you open the PDR and look at what the manufacturer lists for antiandrogens and estrogens, none of them list the drugs for use in transsexual treatment. Any use of HRT for transsexuals is done purely off lable. So any transsexual who tells you that HRT is only for transsexuals is full of it.

You must realize how offensive your words are.

First of all the PDR isn't a diagnostic manual. It's merely a listing of drugs, possible side effects, chemistry, lab values and other assorted info. It's also totally relies on manufacturers for this information. And manufacturers don't list us because of 2 reasons:

1. Political correctness-They don't the stigma of being associated with us.

2. Liability-They avoid liability be not listing transition as a indication of use.


It would be interesting to find out what percentage of their sales are to people born transsexual. This willingness to take our money highlights their hypocrisy.


HRT is appropriate medical treatment for transsexual people. Can you show me Standards of Care for androgyny? Is androgyny listed as a medical condition anywhere? I rest my case.


I personally don't care what you do to your body, but keep this in mind:

If it wasn't for people born transsexual pushing and pushing for treatment over the last century HRT probably wouldn't be available for transgender people at all. We opened the door that you blithefully now pass through.


edit: The PDR says estrogens should be used in women only. Well that covers me.

[AshleyAshes]

I've edited my post. I neglected a line which I had originally written but must have edited out before submitting the post. Or I had the idea to write it but lost track away as I went on to another paragraph.

'Of course, lot's of drugs have lots of off lable uses.'

A statement which... I'm rather suprised you didn't use in your response.

However the rest you posted, it's kind of strange, since you seem to skip over the word 'only' in sentance you quoted in preference to get offended.

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of their sales are to people born transsexual. This willingness to take our money highlights their hypocrisy.

On second thought, it seems you just had no idea that most drugs are used for countless off label uses...

Estrogens and Anti Androgens are meant to do 1 thing which is feminize and stop the actions of male hormones.

Actually, Spiro's antiandrogen effect is a side effect. It's meant to treat high blood pressure, flush potasium out of the body, heart conditions, hair loss and other things. Actually, all drugs prescribed to prevent hairloss are antiandrogens and most of those drugs are also used in the treatment of an enlarged prostate or prostate cancer. Most of the estrogens are to treat menopause symptons or birth control applications, not to feminize. (Or in the case of Provera, they use it on dangerious sex offenders). So... Ya might wanna count a bit higher than 'one'.

[xrk9854]

"Of course, lot's of drugs have lots of off lable uses.'

A statement which... I'm rather suprised you didn't use in your response.

I decided not to go that route.

On second thought, it seems you just had no idea that most drugs are used for countless off label uses...

As a medical professional I am quite aware of that fact.

[aliciadarling]

Hi:

Speaking of androyne, where's Linx these days?

Jora you said:
"I don't want to develop a female physiology. Just to look a bit more of a feminine guy than now."

Sort of like Quentin Crisp?

[SentientTgurl2]

Actually, Spiro's antiandrogen effect is a side effect. It's meant to treat high blood pressure, flush potasium out of the body, heart conditions, hair loss and other things. Actually, all drugs prescribed to prevent hairloss are antiandrogens and most of those drugs are also used in the treatment of an enlarged prostate or prostate cancer. Most of the estrogens are to treat menopause symptons or birth control applications, not to feminize. (Or in the case of Provera, they use it on dangerious sex offenders). So... Ya might wanna count a bit higher than 'one'.

Well Provera as standard treatment for TGs is no longer widely used, and that's only because transgender people educated doctors about it not the other way around.
Yes, we all know about Spiro, no if Estrogen's "label use" were meant to treat just menopause doctors would have given it to men who suffere from andropause as well, but they didn't because It causes feminization, BTW, loss of feminization can be contributed to menopause as well, that's why menopausal women get huge bellies, facial hair deeper voices.
Bio Identical Estrogens are really not drugs since they're naturally produced in our bodies, they just seem like drugs because they're synthesized outside of our bodies at times and regulated by the FDA. For this exact reason, they're not Candy. Estrogens and AAs should be used for serious purposes only, that's my opinion, if you don't like it, I don't care, I'm not here to pander to anyone's misguided needs.
Just like there's varying degrees of GID there's varying degrees of several different diseases and conditions all which are not threatening enough for medical intervention.

Actually There's no proof or off the label use for androcur preventing balding.

here's a snippet from wikipedia

Due to the possibility of increased adrenal androgens, cyproterone acetate is sometimes combined with the 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride, and studies of hirsutism treatment show increased efficacy of this combination over cyproterone acetate alone.[9] Some in vitro studies have suggested that cyproterone or cyproterone acetate may have a slight inhibitory effect on 5-alpha-reductase, however no significant reduction in DHT production has been observed in vivo.[10]

DHT is the one that causes balding not testosterone..

As a medical professional I am quite aware of that fact.

honey can also be used to wax chests

[mercy]

I believe HRT should only be reserved for people who plan to transition into female. Estrogens and Anti Androgens are meant to do 1 thing which is feminize and stop the actions of male hormones.

Estrogens and AAs should be used for serious purposes only, that's my opinion, if you don't like it, I don't care, I'm not here to pander to anyone's misguided needs.
Just like there's varying degrees of GID there's varying degrees of several different diseases and conditions all which are not threatening enough for medical intervention.

Wow. You know this is a transgender board right? People from all over the transgender spectrum are welcome here.

All of us on HRT are intervening to bring our biology closer to a form that we're comfortable with so we can lead happy and healthy lives. Just because somebody's most comfortable form doesn't reinforce the biological/binary that you feel you neatly fit into, does not mean you should feel like you can flippantly disregard the degree of their discomfort or the legitimacy of their desire for happiness.

Why don't you leave it to the doctors to decide whether somebody's condition is "threatening enough for medical intervention" and keep the identity undermining opinions to yourself? The original post was simply asking for advice and opinions about the viability of HRT in achieving a certain effect, this person didn't come here to read your opinions about how they should be barred from treatment that you presumably think you're entitled to just because they don't feel the same way you do.

Try showing a little compassion.

[SentientTgurl2]

Wow. You know this is a transgender board right? People from all over the transgender spectrum are welcome here.

How am I not showing compassion, I'm not saying that transgender people are not welcome here......What are you talking about
My opinion is my opinion, and like I said, if you don't like it that's you're problem but don't accuse me of not having compassion for transgender people just because I don't believe body hair is a good enough reason to run out and get a script for estrogen.

Why don't you leave it to the doctors to decide whether somebody's condition is "threatening enough for medical intervention" and keep the identity undermining opinions to yourself? The original post was simply asking for advice and opinions about the viability of HRT in achieving a certain effect, this person didn't come here to read your opinions about how they should be barred from treatment that you presumably think you're entitled to just because they don't feel the same way you do.

Try showing a little compassion.

I don't care how you feel, and I am not asking you to feel the way I do...
How exactly am I telling transgender people they're not welcome here, just because I don't agree that certain "transgender" people should not take hormones......that's not being unwelcoming, being unwelcoming is saying I don't like you, Your thoughts and feelings are not valid because you're not a transsexual like me......which is not what I am saying. So Please,don't put your words into my mouth. Like I said, just because I don't advocate having breast implants for 6 months and then removing them just as an experiment is not an attempt at being unwelcoming to transgender people.

Why don't you let the doctors decide as well, you look like you're pushing your pro adgenda as much as I am

HRT is appropriate medical treatment for transsexual people. Can you show me Standards of Care for androgyny? Is androgyny listed as a medical condition anywhere? I rest my case.

I am using this person's statement as an example which I agree with entirely, but why exactly don't you bitch at this person for bringing up the fact that there's no real standard for androgyny......or even aknowledgement of it by the medical community.

Actually, Spiro's antiandrogen effect is a side effect. It's meant to treat high blood pressure, flush potasium out of the body, heart conditions, hair loss and other things.

I meant to address this earlier, but I was speaking in the context of transition not technicality so don't read into things so literally...please

[Jora]

Thank's for these lots of replies.

Though I didn't get a clear yes or no, it all really helps a LOT. I'd say I got a "It might work for you. Talk to an expert about a possible treatment plan."
To tell, the truth, I hadn't expect much more.

I see some people raising their figurative voice about this issue. As I brought it up, I'm always thankful even when people strongly advice against is. The unfortunate thing about medicine is, that all the things we know for sure, is that "water, used in moderation, is not unhealthy". (So said Twain about 100 years ago.)
Personal experiences can vary greatly and so people come to different conclusions. That's why I'm really thankful that there are so many replies. It would actually have made me suspicious, if everyone had said "yes, do it!". But now I know, that I should probably ask an expert, as it is not for everyone.

Another thing is, that you people use a lot of abbreviation. I know HRT, but that's it.
If people seem to not know, use full spelling.

The last thing I know about germany is, that insurance only pays for full sex reasignment surgery, but doesn't treat you as requiring assistance when you want anything less. But I don't know from that time that is and a lot may have changed since then.

Sort of like Quentin Crisp?

I had to google that.
But hell, yes!
That's awsome.

I'm really not a fan of surgery, so I'd rather avoid it. That's why I asked about this stuff here. Probably get my beard removed some day, as I can't imagine ever wanting to wear one.

[mercy]

How am I not showing compassion, I'm not saying that transgender people are not welcome here......What are you talking about

I'm not saying you're unwelcoming of tg people, I'm pointing out that not everyone here fits the binary gender system, nor wants to, but still (generally) has the extreme discomfort of gender dysphoria, and that as far as HRT goes, saying stuff like, "HRT should be reserved only for people who intend to transition fully to female" smacks of elitism and a generally uncompassionate / unhelpful attitude when somebody is after basic advice as to whether their understanding of the effects of HRT match reality.

If I'm pushing a "pro" agenda, its pro acceptance, information sharing and open minded inclusiveness. My specific advice was to talk to a therapist and see if they agree that it would be a good therapeutic tool or medical solution. I'm not presupposing any kind of outcome. But I definitely think that HRT should be an option for anyone who might lead a better, happier life because of it.

Nor would I bitch at someone for pointing out that androgyny isn't currently listed in any diagnostic manuals or whatever. That's not the point, the point is that gender dysphoria manifests in a bunch of different ways and none of us has any right to pre-suppose that our situation is more deserving of medical intervention than anyone else's.

Now you might keep arguing about whether I'm misinterpreting you, but this is what I saw: Jora asked whether feminizing HRT might help achieve an androgynous appearance and your response was basically "I don't think people like you should be allowed HRT." Now excuse me if I misinterpreted what you said, text is an occasionally ambiguous medium, but if you didn't intend to say that then what helpful advice were you trying to impart exactly?

[Erica]

I'm pointing out that not everyone here fits the binary gender system, nor wants to, but still (generally) has the extreme discomfort of gender dysphoria, and that as far as HRT goes, saying stuff like, "HRT should be reserved only for people who intend to transition fully to female" smacks of elitism and a generally uncompassionate / unhelpful attitude

I didn't really take it that way. I saw it more as a stern warning not to open a can of worms by starting something that may be regretted later.
I think some people who identify as androgyn sort of like the idea of dipping their feet into the hormone water. "wouldn't it be nice to have breasts. Oh but not to big, and not too noticeable" and "well I like feeling a little girly but i still want to be able to perform.

I think the warning given here was more along the lines of, "careful what you wish for, because you might get that plus a whole lot more". I did about 5-6 months worth of HRT, and then started freaking out due to complete loss of sexual potency and fears of sterility. I then weaned myself off and recovered a bit, well then in the last month I injected twice, and guess what doesn't work again. I'm not pointing fingers here except at myself. Guilty as charged. I love E and I hate it too. When I went off, I pined for that wonderful feeling in my chest, and when I went back on I pined for that feeling from points south.

More and more I think that what you end up with by dabbling with hormones may be a little girl and a little boy but what gets left out is the best part of both.

[SentientTgurl2]

I didn't really take it that way. I saw it more as a stern warning not to open a can of worms by starting something that may be regretted later.
I think some people who identify as androgyn sort of like the idea of dipping their feet into the hormone water. "wouldn't it be nice to have breasts. Oh but not to big, and not too noticeable" and "well I like feeling a little girly but i still want to be able to perform.

I think the warning given here was more along the lines of, "careful what you wish for, because you might get that plus a whole lot more". I did about 5-6 months worth of HRT, and then started freaking out due to complete loss of sexual potency and fears of sterility. I then weaned myself off and recovered a bit, well then in the last month I injected twice, and guess what doesn't work again. I'm not pointing fingers here except at myself. Guilty as charged. I love E and I hate it too. When I went off, I pined for that wonderful feeling in my chest, and when I went back on I pined for that feeling from points south.

More and more I think that what you end up with by dabbling with hormones may be a little girl and a little boy but what gets left out is the best part of both.

Thank You girl Anon for putting my words in proper context

e·lit·ism-The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

I don't see transsexual as being elite in the class of transgender, I would think that being at the less dysphoric end of the transgender scale would make someone more elite because they don't have the compulsive drive to transition and constantly want to be seen as their desired gender. Being transgender vs something on the less dysphoric end is going to be a lot harder when compared to having to jump through hoops like coming out, living a year as your preferred gender just to get surgeries and letters ect. So take your accusations of elitism and blow your nose with them please.

Now you might keep arguing about whether I'm misinterpreting you, but this is what I saw: Jora asked whether feminizing HRT might help achieve an androgynous appearance and your response was basically "I don't think people like you should be allowed HRT." Now excuse me if I misinterpreted what you said, text is an occasionally ambiguous medium, but if you didn't intend to say that then what helpful advice were you trying to impart exactly?

Before becoming upset, making wild accusations, and putting your own contextualization on things did you even ask me what I meant?

How Girl Anon perceived my words was exactly right, it was a warning to not be so frivolous with HRT, and how it might affect you. This is why doctors make transsexuals jump through hoops for HRT

[aliciadarling]

Hi Jora:

I didn't know if you'd heard of Quentin Crisp, but he was
quite famous and definitely out there as was Oscar Wilde.

You may want to do a search on these boards for Linx's experiences
as a self identifide androgyne who was on hormones.

You mentioned wanting to get rid of your beard. Having a beard
shadow is definitely something you might want to get rid of.
It's that dark shadow under the skin from the roots of the hair.

[Jora]

How Girl Anon perceived my words was exactly right, it was a warning to not be so frivolous with HRT, and how it might affect you. This is why doctors make transsexuals jump through hoops for HRT

It also appeared that way to me. I think someone used the word "reserved", which might probably have been a bit misleading. I don't see a problem with "reserved because of medical reasons".

But another question I have: It's called HRT, and as I know the R means replacement. I don't know if it is really a replacement, but that really wouldn't be what I was thinking of.

What I had in mind was primarily a slight reduction of testosterone levels. For full transition these things are probably the same.
As said before, I have no real knowledge about this stuff, but couldn't you have the one thing without the other?
To tell the truth, I also have no real idea what testosterone really does. But as it seems to make women more masculine, does it also make men more masculine? And would a slight lowering of levels make a man less masculine over time?
I know that you can't just take it away completely, but some men are healthy with lower levels than other men, so...

All info that I can find is about how to treat too low levels in old men.

Any thought about that?

[mercy]

What I had in mind was primarily a slight reduction of testosterone levels. For full transition these things are probably the same.
As said before, I have no real knowledge about this stuff, but couldn't you have the one thing without the other?
To tell the truth, I also have no real idea what testosterone really does. But as it seems to make women more masculine, does it also make men more masculine? And would a slight lowering of levels make a man less masculine over time?
I know that you can't just take it away completely, but some men are healthy with lower levels than other men, so...

All info that I can find is about how to treat too low levels in old men.

Any thought about that?

As I understand it, lowering your T levels won't, by itself, cause you to lose physical masculine features, particularly if you keep the hormone level within the normal male range. They might help you to stop some aspects of further masculinisation. As some people have pointed out, blocking androgens has been used in treating male pattern baldness, though I have no idea how successful this is.

If you're seeking a balance of masculine and feminine traits to harmonise your appearance to perhaps be more gender non-specific then hormones, including estrogens, might have some application, but otherwise I don't imagine reduced testosterone will have a noticeable effect. What effects you will notice will probably be a change or reduction in sex drive.

If you aren't comfortable with your body then you might need to consider other options to alleviate that - therapy, hair removal, whatever you're okay with.

[Jora]

No, I'm perfectly happy with my body. Could use some workout and a fashion makeover, but it's mine and I want to keep it.

I never considered hormones or other drugs as the primary means to get more in touch with myself. Was just thinking about if it might be a positively affecting addition. Shaving my legs and my tummy gets a bit anoying, but in face of the side effects of significant hormone treatment, I rather put up with that.

[SentientTgurl2]

Just do what's best for you.